Is it time for the Southern Baptist Convention to reevaluate its traditional views on women serving as pastors? In an eye-opening conversation, we tackle the question of whether these views reflect sound biblical theology or are simply remnants of outdated sexist ideology. Our guests are Southern Baptist preacher Rev. Dr. Stephen Drake along with Drs. Erin Moniz and Jon Huggins, both of whom are ordained in the Anglican Church of North America.
We discuss the recent Southern Baptist meeting in New Orleans in which several churches were ejected from the SBC for having female pastors, and also additional restrictions were placed on women in pastoral roles (pending final approval next year). Comparing the Southern Baptist Convention's practices to those within the Anglican Church and other Christian traditions, we explore the evolving perspectives on gender roles in church leadership. Erin shares her experiences as a woman being called to ministry and pursuing her ordination.
As we wrap up, we delve into the concepts of complementarianism, egalitarianism, and mutuality, examining their implications for gender roles within the church. Our guests share their perspectives on the roles of men and women in church leadership and the vital need for both voices to be represented. We also touch on the potential harm that can be caused unintentionally by certain messaging and recommend resources for further exploration. Join us for this enlightening and engaging conversation on the ever-evolving roles of women in church leadership.
The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.
Is it time for the Southern Baptist Convention to reevaluate its traditional views on women serving as pastors? In an eye-opening conversation, we tackle the question of whether these views reflect sound biblical theology or are simply remnants of outdated sexist ideology. Our guests are Southern Baptist preacher Rev. Dr. Stephen Drake along with Drs. Erin Moniz and Jon Huggins, both of whom are ordained in the Anglican Church of North America.
We discuss the recent Southern Baptist meeting in New Orleans in which several churches were ejected from the SBC for having female pastors, and also additional restrictions were placed on women in pastoral roles (pending final approval next year). Comparing the Southern Baptist Convention's practices to those within the Anglican Church and other Christian traditions, we explore the evolving perspectives on gender roles in church leadership. Erin shares her experiences as a woman being called to ministry and pursuing her ordination.
As we wrap up, we delve into the concepts of complementarianism, egalitarianism, and mutuality, examining their implications for gender roles within the church. Our guests share their perspectives on the roles of men and women in church leadership and the vital need for both voices to be represented. We also touch on the potential harm that can be caused unintentionally by certain messaging and recommend resources for further exploration. Join us for this enlightening and engaging conversation on the ever-evolving roles of women in church leadership.
The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.
Good time with the family on vacation yes, great time, yeah, and anything special for fathers' day Oh, fathers' day was awesome. Yeah, love them, yeah. What would y'all do?
Speaker 3:Well, it was kind of a busy day with teaching at church and preaching at college.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it wasn't a day off then.
Speaker 3:Yeah, still got to have plenty of good time with our kids.
Speaker 1:Good, good Steve. how about you? Did you do anything for fathers' day?
Speaker 2:Son came down from Harrison, tennessee, with his wife. We had lunch together, then went out to see my wife at the memory care facility. She has. Alzheimer's, so she doesn't really know what's going on. But she played the part of mama and wife and kissed everybody in her, so it was a good day.
Speaker 1:That's real sweet, very sweet Aaron don't want to leave you out.
Speaker 1:Did y'all do anything fancy for fathers' day? Oh, i just served the church. There you go. Well, welcome everyone to Church Potluck, where we are serving up a smorgasbord of Christian Curiosity. I'm your host, dale McConkey, sociology professor and United Methodist pastor, and you know there are two keys to a good church potluck Plenty of variety and engaging conversation. And this is exactly what we tried to do here on Church Potluck sitting down with friends and sharing our ideas on a variety of topics from a variety of academic disciplines and a variety of Christian traditions. And today we are talking about something that could be potentially contentious, but I don't think that's going to happen with this group of folks. What are we going to be talking about today?
Speaker 2:Now, give me that old time religion. Give me that old time religion. Give me that old time religion. It's good enough for me.
Speaker 1:That old time religion. It was good for our mothers. It was good for our mothers and daughters. It was good for our mothers and daughters. It was good enough for me. Now, give me that old time religion. Last week, the Southern Baptist Convention reinforced, intensified and acted upon their traditional views regarding women serving as pastors. What are we to make of the Southern Baptist prohibition of women as pastoral leaders? Is it sound biblical theology in practice, or is it outdated sexist ideology? This is what we have gathered to talk about today. Let's see who's sitting around the table. We've actually got two newcomers at the table today. First we have the Reverend Dr Stephen Drake. All right, Welcome, Reverend Drake. How are you doing, Stephen? Doing? very well. Thanks, Dale, Go ahead, Take a moment to introduce yourself And you're new to the podcast, and even we get a lot of Barry folks listening to us and you're not formally associated with Barry, so give a little extra context too, if you'd like. Native.
Speaker 2:Arkansan. I grew up there until I was about three years old Oh, i don't have the boo button anymore, but whole hog Love the Razorbacks. But I came here when I was about 23 years old in 1971. Fell in love with a girl at West Rome Baptist Church. That was really my first serious church relationship. Heard the expository preaching of Dr Jerry Vines. I was enamored by him since a call to ministry myself and in 1977 went off to Bible college down in Texas, established by a famed Baptist preacher called WA Criswell who wrote the book Why I Preach. The Bible is Literally True. So you can kind of get an idea of where my roots are a high view of Scripture, a bit of a disdain for a higher criticism, because we just thought those were the guys on the other team, you know. But I've kind of mellowed in my years since then And finishing up at Criswell, i made an application to Southern Seminary which was one of our more neo-Orthodox seminaries.
Speaker 1:And by neo-Orthodox kind of progressive in their thinking.
Speaker 2:Yes, liberal, more German theology, recent German theology, demythologization of Scriptures and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:So I made an application. there was quickly turned down. They sent back and said we only are taking students from accredited schools. We had only recently achieved the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools accreditation as well as the Texas accreditation. So I made copies of that, reapplied, sent it back up there and they said we've looked at your transcript. Don't think that you have enough liberal arts in your background, so we're going to put you off for another year. And I said to my wife Sharia I said, honey, you know, the Bible talks about God opening doors that nobody can shut, and shutting doors nobody can open. I don't want to kick this door open. I thought that's where he wanted me to go, but maybe not for now.
Speaker 2:Took a church in Georgia and three years later I said I just can't shake it. Let's go one more time and go up there personally and see if we can't get in the school. After discussion with the provost We were allowed to come in for one semester if I was able to cut it and if I could keep my nose clean. And so that's how I got in and did two degrees there, finished up a doctorate there in 1994, and the rest is pretty much history. I was called back to that school and taught there for 11 years and in the ministry department, which is one of maybe one or two demons that taught most of our terminal degrees. So I felt very fortunate to have that privilege. And then the president of the Billy Graham School was called to Lifeway Christian Resources as president. He said Steve, come on down with me, i want you to be director of corporate relations. So that was the job I retired from.
Speaker 1:And Lifeway is kind of like the flagship of Southern Baptist.
Speaker 2:Bible producers, Sunday School producers, and you know it's a $500 million corporation, But Christian but still corporate, And my eyes were open to that also. Oh, interesting, That's another podcast for another day, that's another podcast. Yeah, so I retired there in 2015,. Came here and then a little church out here next to where you, pastor Dale, asked if I'd come and be their pastor and I've been happily there.
Speaker 1:This is my second run out there, as you know, but for the most part about four years with that congregation Yeah, And it's Everett Spring Baptist Church And, like you said, just a half mile down from where I'm pastor and that's how we know one another And I always consider you and Stan Pethel being a dream team out there. The fact that Everett Spring has been able to have you and Stan out there him as music and you as their pastor is really really quite remarkable. And our churches have done some connected ministries, especially our Fifth Sunday singing, where all the three small congregations out there get together every Fifth Sunday and just sing hymns, and that's a very nice community event and a great praising of God. Thank you very much. It's great to have you on the show. Yeah, hey, and next we have another newcomer, the Reverend Dr Aaron Moniz. Hey, dan, and I've only known you for decade plus or 20 years plus, and I'm still not sure if I pronounced your last name correctly Aaron.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, It's. anything close is fine.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 4:It's my husband's, from a Portuguese family, and so it's all good. Thank you for the introduction.
Speaker 1:Great, and Aaron is joining us, remotely, actually, from Baylor University, and so, aaron, go ahead and introduce yourself and take a little extra time as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a real treat for me to be on the podcast, First of all because, once you started it just a little while ago, I've been listening to the episodes, and so it's real exciting to be on Also.
Speaker 1:I get to be on two of my bosses. I'm sorry, i just talked over you, aaron. Go ahead and say that again.
Speaker 4:It's a real treat to be on the podcast because I get to be on with two of my former bosses.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's right.
Speaker 4:Great So John Huggins, who I worked for the past nine years or so at Barry, and you, dale, who I worked for as a student, and I guess two chaplains right. So when you were a chaplain it worked for you and John's chaplain. So I feel like I'm spanning generations here. But a lot of great connections. Good to be virtually at the table with all of you today. Steven, good to make you your acquaintance today, thanks. I was a student at Barry College where I studied sociology and anthropology and got minors in religion and psychology. Went on a few years later to go to seminary. Got my masters of divinity in professional ministry from Liberty University.
Speaker 1:Which, those of you who don't know, is a very conservative My parents actually still attend Southern Baptist church.
Speaker 4:I grew up in down in Marietta, georgia, and grew up just really appreciating the seriousness for scripture. I learned so much during that time. Now, during my sort of discernment into adulthood, after marrying my husband which actually Dale, officiated our wedding. There's another one, yeah, we won't say how long ago, but after marrying my husband, he was raised from Catholic. We were a part of a Presbyterian church in Nashville, tennessee, where we lived for several years And then, after getting my seminary degree, was actually offered job as a director for student ministries back at Barry College. So we moved back to Georgia and got to serve there during that time under John's leadership and it was wonderful to be back at our alma mater. That's actually where my husband and I met in an environmental ethics course. So I always tell everyone hey, kids take the ethics courses, so we come back and we get to serve students there.
Speaker 4:During that time I discerned a call where I was ordained as a deacon in the Anglican church of North America And that's where I currently serve as a deacon in the ACNA.
Speaker 4:And I also ended up getting a doctorate from Trinity School for Ministry in Pittsburgh And then got the chance while my time at Barry was wonderful. Got the chance to move out here to Texas, out here in Waco, and have been working for a year and a half at Baylor University So back with the Baptist, as it turns out, and get to serve as a deacon in our local Anglican church here all Saints Waco, and it's a real joy. My deep love is for college students and I absolutely love getting to minister to them. I serve here as an associate chaplain and director for chapel So I help just with a lot of the spiritual formation that's done with our students here at Baylor And really enjoy getting to do that. But I'd have a fondness for everything that contributed to my upbringing and have been sort of keeping an eye on what's been happening in New Orleans with the Southern Baptist this past week, happy to be here to talk about it.
Speaker 1:Great, And thank you so much. And one thing you didn't mention as if you weren't busy enough, you are also having your own podcast as well, right? I can't believe you didn't get to take a chance to You know, in my spare time.
Speaker 4:That's right, you didn't get a chance to plug that.
Speaker 1:But and this also tips your hand in terms of where you kind of fall in this position but the podcast is called Mutuality Matters, correct?
Speaker 4:Yes, A former student at Barrie and I started it back in 2019 and it was picked up a year later by Christians for biblical equality international, where now we have a team of co-hosts and we talk about being on mission gospel empowerment for both men and women. I talk a lot about gender theology.
Speaker 1:All of that is awesome, and I've overused the applause button. I'm going to do it again. Anyway, all that's wonderful stuff, wonderful stuff. And, last but not least, we have he's not least because he's got a third extra title in his name the Reverend Dr Chaplin John Huggins. Yay, chaplin Huggins, welcome to the podcast. You are not a stranger. You have been on the episode a few times. Yes, thanks so much for having me back, and it's great. Go ahead, and you don't have to share quite as much, since people are familiar with you from previous episodes, hopefully, but tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 3:Right. So I'm the college chaplain at Barrie. I've been for 13 years. I teach theology in the department And I'm also an Anglican priest in the Anglican church in North America.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thank you so much, and I've said this on a previous episode, but we hired you when I was chaplain. We hired you as the assistant chaplain And we hired you at a very critical time when my wife was very ill and I was not. I was taking a lot of time off and you did a fabulous job in that situation And then, just when I decided that I needed to step back from that position, and you took over that position. Just so grateful for what an amazing job you have done, ministering to everyone here, thank you And Aaron Wachee was here as well, but you've stuck around, so thank you so much for your ministry here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great. All right, let me get the conversation started with a little commentary and a little context. So the issue of women serving as pastors is resolved in my mind. As far as I'm concerned, i am fully in favor of women serving as pastors. My denomination, the United Methodist Church, has been ordaining women as elders since 1956. And we often like to tell the story of how John Wesley himself I think it was himself licensed Sarah Crosby to preach as early as 1761. That's, licensed to preach is a little different than ordaining, but still we like to tell that story.
Speaker 1:Two of my most recent supervising pastors we call them district superintendents have been women, as have my two most recent bishops. So this is not really a question up for debate for me personally. And yet the two largest religious bodies in the United States Catholics and Southern Baptists, who don't agree on a whole lot both do not allow women to be priests or pastors, and there's many other smaller denominations that take that position as well. So clearly a large portion of Christians disagree with me, and Church Potluck isn't about me promoting my personal views. Like I say at the beginning of each episode, we want to offer a variety of perspectives and we want to do this like we are sitting around a church potluck, with the same kind of politeness and respect, discussing our differences and respectful and generous ways.
Speaker 1:We live in such a polarized and divisive world. I try to make this podcast a place where we can share our different perspectives with empathy and grace. So that's the goal and let's get to it. And, stephen, we're going to begin with you. So, as I said before, we jump into the issue of women in leadership and the recent actions by the Southern Baptist Convention. Just really quickly, give me the elevator speech. If someone says, steve, what's the Southern Baptist? What's the 30 second version of what a Southern Baptist is, my goodness, Based with the concept of local church autonomy, priesthood of the believer.
Speaker 2:You can't find two Baptists that are lacking anything, We just have so many different. There are over 400 different Baptist denominations in the world, so you can just imagine but loosely held together by the Baptist faith and message. The Southern Baptist Convention If I'm not too wrong, I believe there are over 14,000 churches loosely hold to the tenets of that confession of faith. It's not a creed, It's not binding. So in that creed, the statements that limit the pastorate to, and we use elder and bishop and put them all together in that one office and pretty much the deaconate too, There are some Baptist churches that have female deacons, and so that's where the Southern Baptist Convention stands.
Speaker 2:For me personally, the issue comes down to this If a woman in the church was promoting some kind of theft, bank robbery, I would strongly disagree. But if what she wants to do is serve God, I have a hard time coming down hard on somebody that wants to lead people to Jesus and serve God. So maybe we don't agree, But, as you and I know, in the time that we shared a parish this has not been a matter of fellowship. We still have fellowship even though we don't agree on some things like that. It's a matter of hermeneutics. And if I could say I've never changed my mind on anything, because I'm right about everything, I might be a little bit stronger on this. But I've changed my mind before and I could change my mind again. So that's kind of where I am.
Speaker 2:I do take the Baptist faith in message as my profile, But if a woman tells me God's called her to preach, I'm not going to tell her no, he hasn't. I have no way to say something like that. Once had a lady, a girl, a young lady at seminary, asked me I was pastor at Baxter Avenue Baptist Church in Louisville And she said, Steve, would you do my ordination? if I said I don't remember her name, but I said, dear, I wish I had the freedom to do that Hermeneutically. I can't do that without violating my own conscience. But I'll tell you this if you do find a church to ordain you into the pastured, I would be honored to attend and lay hands on your head and preach And pray that in whatever way you choose to serve God, he would bless those efforts. And so that's where I stand.
Speaker 1:Okay, now that sounds like a more generous, a more open approach to what was decided at the Southern Baptist Convention. It is indeed So. Why don't you give your quick overview of what you think happened at the recent Southern Baptist meeting in New Orleans? And then, aaron, when Steve is done with that, we'll ask you to jump in and give your insights on that 12,000 messengers were at this convention. I'll say just But messengers were talking, voters delegates along, that's what.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we don't call them delegates because they're not sent there to vote a certain way. They can vote their heart, and so we call that a messenger. Okay, and so there was enough talk. You know, prior to the convention, that the messengers who went there pretty much had their mind made up when they got there how they were going to vote, or fear of heading back toward a more liberal position that Southern Baptist was heading in the 70s and 80s.
Speaker 2:Staying the course is an important thing to a lot of messengers And on top of that, i honestly believe that most of the messengers that voted to disfellowship the six churches or so did that in full conscience that this is the right thing, this is what the Bible says, and women should not be pastors. They should not be the leader, the primary leader, of a local body of believers. I'm not completely settled on that issue. That's where I am And I'm staying right there until God moves me otherwise. But the messengers that were there felt that it was a matter of fellowship for these churches to be put out of the Southern Baptist convention, to let them serve God, have their polity however they thought best, and so that's what happened at the convention.
Speaker 1:So it has always been part of Southern Baptist faith and message. At least for the last 20 years, it's been formally stated that women cannot serve as lead head pastors.
Speaker 2:I think the terminology is that while both men and women are gifted uniquely for service in the church, the office of pastor is open only to men. and words like that Yes.
Speaker 1:But what's kind of unique about this particular meeting? it seems that they have said we're going to start enforcing this in new ways that we haven't before. by this is the first time that they've really kicked churches out, or at least this many. They kicked five churches out of the Southern Baptist convention because they did have women pastor, and they've also made a move that will take another two-thirds vote next year but that it's actually going to be put into the Constitution now as kind of part of the bylaws.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's got to be voted on two years in a row. Yes, one time this year and then next year. they'll ratify it.
Speaker 1:Karen, you said that you had been keeping your eye on what happened at the Southern Baptist convention. What's your take on that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I appreciate Steve's very helpful and charitable overview of all of this. It's hard for me to remain shy on this issue. Being a female minister, it's not one of those things I can hide particularly and sort of be ambiguous on this. So from early early days, when I realized that my call to ministry was going to entail me being in leadership roles, i really wrestled with that. Just to be candid, anyone who kind of knows me and knows my background knows that it took me better part of a decade before I even went to seminary, because I did have my own questions about my gender and how that played into my calling and what I was being called to. And so I can appreciate both sides of this, having been on both sides. But then once I once I moved in obedience toward that call, i started doing my homework, because as women in ministry, we tend to go to work every day with our resumes, tend to our shirt as a way of always trying to demonstrate, you know, our being there in many ways, and so it was always helpful to have just a level of understanding, a theological grounding, for where I stood. So, looking at what was happening with the Southern Baptist Convention, i still have a lot of wonderful friends in the SBC and just in Baptist denominations all over the country And I can't say I'm terribly surprised that this is happening.
Speaker 4:When I was growing up in my Southern Baptist Church, they were not shy about that position that they held and, honestly, growing up as a young woman at the time, it didn't actually bother me. I felt like we were being faithful to what scripture was saying. And, plus, i had a mother who was active in all areas of church life My mother for years and even to this day. She slowed down a little bit but she was in charge of anything and everything that she could be in charge of And she was with a cohort of women who we all knew as kids. This was the group that was actually the backbone of the church. It was the WMU, it was the mission board, it was the head of the GAs. These women were not sitting on their laurels and the church ran as a result of their engagement in the church.
Speaker 4:So even though we had this theology as Southern Baptist, where I was never going to see a woman on stage preaching for the pulpit, i didn't grow up in a space where women were exiled in any way.
Speaker 4:In fact, i saw evidence of strong engaging women in leadership, although informal but very active, and one thing that sort of grieves my heart a little bit about what's happening or what has happened with the SBC and the language and the disfellowship, and I feel like there's a lot of strong movements happening that have a ripple effect that I don't think many people will think about, which is not just that women can't be pastors, but that women who are engaged and active in their churches, there's culture that surrounds these ideas And I've seen it time and time again where it's not women who are trying to be pastors, necessarily, but women who are just trying to be engaged and use their leadership roles in the church, where they are often received with suspicion and are oftentimes hamstringed in ways just because the culture for something like this is the threat of disfellowship, the idea of coming too close to a line that could get you in the hot seat with the convention continues to sort of push a lot of women, and there are dozens of anecdotes where this happens and is happening to so many people I know in Baptist churches, but not just Baptist churches, but since we're honing on them today, that's my main fear.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting point and thank you for that. And just out of curiosity, with your mother being so active but yet growing up her whole life in a Southern Baptist context, what was her reaction, what were your parents' reaction, when you told them that you felt called to go into the ministry?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's an interesting story. I'll try to keep it short because I got my first call to ministry when I was 11. I wanted to work in student ministry and since we were really good church folks and man, we were there every time the doors were open. I don't know if people today remember You had Sunday morning church, you had Sunday evening church, you had Wednesday night fellowship, you had choir rehearsal, you had Bible trilogy, you had GAs. We were there. Church was our life. So I thought my parents would be thrilled to hear that I wanted to make that my. And that was the day I learned that we had this understanding that there's just certain things that women don't do in terms of church leadership and being a good kid, i just was like, oh, i didn't know. And okay, what can women do? My mother kindly explained to me that I could. I could teach Sunday school or I could work with children, or I could and this one's my favorite I could marry a minister.
Speaker 4:I'm not sure what a vocational track one takes to ensure that calling fulfilled. But that's a whole other. That's a whole other thing. So at 11, i just said I guess I'm not called to be in ministry. None of those things sounded particularly appealing to me And I just sort of put it away And that's what sort of led me on a longer journey. So I will say that when I got to where I was discerning a call to ordained ministry and this was, oh gosh, in my early 30s, so now I'm coming as an adult to my parents, i won't lie I had to make some peace with the possibility that this would, that I would have to choose between obedience to a call or fellowship with my family. And though I'd never, they never. I didn't imagine that's how I'd be received. I prepared myself for the possibility because I didn't want to put them in a crisis of conscience. You know we all love each other.
Speaker 1:I was going to say from every context. I was going to say from you know, from every context. I've ever seen you interacting with your parents is just incredibly tight, loving family. So it's kind of striking to think that you are worried about how this might fracture the relationship in some way.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, it's, yeah, it's true, truly, and I really have. I'm so blessed with my relationship with my family. I think what doesn't occur to anyone, unless you're a woman discerning these things, is that. Is that there? these are some of the risks, because there is a latent sort of suspicion oftentimes of what's behind someone like myself entering the ministry. A lot of well-meaning people who just are not sure what my motives are Interesting.
Speaker 4:Yeah, just that layer and then also just puts my parents in a situation with their friends. with them, I mean, they still attend the church I grew up in, So it's still very much Southern Baptist. But I'm happy to say, all things considered, they were actually always very supportive of me and just like true Baptist I think Stephen said like we're Baptist, are sort of all over the map because of that great free church tradition and congregational follow. They exercised that to say you know, we believe the Lord calls in different ways and we may not understand it, but we support you and we see God working in your life. and they actually attended my ordination service, which was a great surprise and joy for me. So we have a good working relationship since then, where we're all you know. it's not a point of contention.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that, and that actually blends in very nicely. John, you actually have a ordination story that very much has to do with gender and women's ordination. Even though you yourself are not a woman, but you still have, it was still very central to your call and ministry, so why don't you go ahead and share that in whatever direction you'd like to go?
Speaker 3:It was a factor in me arriving in the Anglican church. So I also was born and raised in Southern Baptist Church and actually went to. My parents went to West Rome Baptist Church because Jerry Vines was the pastor there and that's the kind of preaching they like.
Speaker 1:I saw you nodding your head when Steve was talking about Jerry Vines.
Speaker 3:I grew up there and that's how I came to know Jesus and to love the Bible and to want to be part of God's mission in the world was all through being nurtured in that environment, went to a Baptist college, but then in graduate school I was involved in the PCA and I was at Presbyterian Church in America and after seminary myself I was ordained in the Presbyterian Church. That's what I was serving in a Presbyterian Church before I came to Barry. But when I came to Barry I had to transfer from one Presbyterian to another and from Metro Atlanta to Northwest Georgia and one just kind of had broader margins on how they might interpret the polity within the Presbyterian Church. And since I was coming into this new community they were more strict about their standards related to what you could take exception to. In the Presbyterian it's called the Book of Church Order. It's how their polity is structured And most people take some objections to that or to the Westminster standards, which is their confessional theological beliefs, and I felt like mine were actually pretty mild.
Speaker 3:But one of them was I suggested that the Book of Church Order should be changed to allow for women to serve as deacons. So in their polity that's not even at the same level as elders, which are typically your pastors, are a form of an elder. This was just the deaconate.
Speaker 1:So I don't know if it's true in all areas, but just for the listeners. So an elder is usually a lead pastor who's often in charge of worship, preaching of the word, the sacraments, whereas deacons are often ordained to serve as a servant and not so much the preaching role. So there's just a little bit of context.
Speaker 3:There It became very clear that view was not going to fly And, strangely, i had been influenced by a PCA pastor, tim Keller, who had found ways to empower women to serve in deacon-like ministries in his church up in New York. But that was just one of the influences, but anyway, that was really just one factor among many of me making a move towards the Anglican Church, which I've been in since 2011,. So almost 12 years.
Speaker 1:Let me just interrupt you there. I don't know if you finished the story or not, but when you first told me that story and I believe it may have been in part of the interview process and having you come to bury just how impressed I was at your integrity, that, rather than shifting your answer or even fudging it a little bit, that you saw, this is my beliefs, this is my conviction, and this may not be the right denomination for me because of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right. It was one of those factors that made what was already a kind of subjective draw towards the Anglican tradition. It kind of gave me an objective sign or clue that okay, not as at home in this groove as I once was and needed to move into a different groove. And so in the Anglican Church in North America we have some of the same issues are discussed in our denomination as you get in other churches.
Speaker 1:I want to get Steve back in this conversation soon, but I did want to ask you and Aaron both about that. You are both part of the Anglican Church in North America, which probably fair to say that it's a group that splintered off from the Episcopal Church in the United States and it's more conservative, and I'd like you to explain to me sort of the position, if I understand correctly, that women cannot. even so, even though both of you are in favor of women in leadership, women cannot serve as bishops in the denomination but may serve as elders, depending on which region or which diocese that they are in or which individual congregation. Could you all clarify that for me?
Speaker 3:Let me say first that the confessional standards of the Anglican Church was rooted in the Church of England English Reformation, so 39 articles, so it's over 500 years old, even though the ACNA is a relatively new expression of Anglicanism in the United States.
Speaker 3:We do not have a position in our confessional standards, that is, our doctrinal statements, about the gender of the leadership, unlike the Baptist faith, the message, which does, and we have a diversity of practice within our own denomination.
Speaker 3:So it's left to the discretion of the bishops whether or not they will ordain, because bishops do all the confirmations and all the ordinations in any diocese and that's since they kind of hold the keys to the kingdom, so they can choose to ordain qualified men or women to the positions of deacon or priest. Some diocese ordain women to be both deacons and priests or priests. Some will only ordain women to the role of deacon and some won't do either. So it depends on. So it's a denomination that is unified around core essentials but allows for a diversity of practice on what roles women will play, which I thought that was an interesting parallel to something like the Southern Baptist Convention, which says it's not a denomination but honestly seems to function like one or act like one sometimes. You know when it's CPC. Yeah, the Southern Baptist Convention sometimes acts like a denomination and then sometimes says it's not a denomination.
Speaker 2:I've never heard it not a denomination. I've never heard that, but I've always thought of it as a denomination. I mean, everything is that you take $100 or take a dollar. That's a denomination of $100. I think it's a denomination of $1. So even the little big churches that say we're a no denomination denomination, Yeah, I would think anyway.
Speaker 3:It doesn't always seem to play out like the claim that we're just kind of a voluntary association of churches and that the Baptist faith and mission doesn't function like a creed. It's hard for outsiders to believe that. I believe that that is true because it doesn't allow for diversity of practice on Uncertain issues.
Speaker 2:It'll allow, but you just get kicked out. Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:But Aaron can probably speak well to this, as someone who's gone through this ordination process within has belonged to two different diocese.
Speaker 1:Let me ask both of you and Aaron maybe you can jump in here first Even though you are both in favor of full inclusion for women, are you comfortable with your Anglican church And maybe that's putting you in a tight spot to answer that way But is this approach something that you are personally comfortable with?
Speaker 4:I don't know if comfort or discomfort really has anything to do with it, as much as I am grateful for the ACNA and had to discern long and hard before planting my flag there, not just because of being a woman, but also because I have nothing but problems with authority generally, just as a person.
Speaker 4:And so I had to really think long about what it means to submit to a church, to an authority, to a structure, and though there are many things within my denomination that I might not agree with totally or wish were different or better I mean, most denominations at their highest level are real hot mess across the board But I'm a big believer in the local church And I'm a big believer in the fellowship of local clergy and our deenerees. And I've been in two different dioceses, one that ordains women only to the diaconate and one now that ordains women also to the priesthood, and I can say in both I have always felt greatly supported, greatly seen, never, never made to feel as a second class citizen. My leaders are always looking out for me And I know that's not everyone's experience within my denomination, but I can't say anything. But what is true about that? So yeah, without going into a whole thing. I think I'll leave that there.
Speaker 3:That's great, thank you. You know the interesting parallel. I mean, admittedly, where Aaron and I grow up Southern Baptist, but we're now kind of outsiders to the conversation and arrived in different conclusions. There are parallels between the Anglican church's sort of movement away from where the Episcopal church was going socially, theologically, politically and the history of the Southern Baptist in the last 50 years or so, with the kind of conservative resurgence that you alluded to when you were talking about Southern Seminary.
Speaker 3:And so I know that there are people in the churches like the Southern Baptist Church and the ACNA that have this sort of fear that we need to be really strong about certain things, strict about certain things, or else our church will become like those churches that left. It's the slippery slope argument, You know. We're just afraid that this then leads to one thing or another, And I mean I can really appreciate the fact that both churches want to take the Bible seriously, the authority seriously, and both think they are being faithful to the Scriptures. So we're interpreting the Bible in different ways in this case, And even within the ACNA there are people who have different views on this, Some that are very much in favor of women in the priesthood and some who are very much against it, but it's in the same church. We're still reciting the Nicene Creed together, affirming the authority of the bishops and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:This is kind of interesting because in my own denomination, in our Methodist denomination, we have people who are trying to make that argument for LGBTQ inclusion Right. It's okay, if we have disagreements on this issue, that we can have different interpretations of Scripture, and there are some that have said no, we can't, and have disaffiliated, and those are growing by the numbers. Another podcast for another day. But you have done a great job, john, segwaying us, and I want to get Steve back into this conversation. Where is this coming from in Scripture? I'm sure people are listening out there. You haven't talked about the Bible yet, right? Where is this coming from in Scripture that's preventing women from serving as the lead pastors? Or is there any kind of title with pastor in it as?
Speaker 2:far as I understand First. Timothy, i think it's chapter one speaks about. If a man desires the office of a bishop, it's a good thing. Therefore, he should be the husband of one wife. There's a hook right there, because it's going to be a if a bishop has to be a husband of one wife and a woman can't be a husband except in our new current environment, he's got to be a man.
Speaker 1:Do you think that implies that he has to be a husband as well, that he needs to be married? There's some.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a church of Christ branch that believes not only do you have to be married, but you have to have children and they have to be well behaved. You've got to go to the whole gamut. It's a consistent argument to make if you're going to make that argument. Another argument is nowhere in the Scripture did they ordain any women as pastors. The other side of that is neither did they ordain any pastors. There's never. No man has ever called a pastor. No woman has ever called a pastor. They're called co-workers and ministers. Many times the word diacona is used as minister much as it is servant, and so you've got that there.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate Aaron's remark about struggling with authority, because I do that also.
Speaker 2:I don't want to struggle with authority that I have to answer to. I struggle with people thinking they've got to answer to me as a pastor, and I don't like that. And I've never had the idea that as a pastor, that my being head of the church or as a husband, being the head of the home had anything to do with being boss of the home or CEO or somebody you had to look up to or obey, as much as it was a cranium, a real head on a real body like Jesus is the head of the body. And if you stump your toe says to the head, i'm hurting down here, and head says I've got a hand It's on its way down to. So the head becomes a meter of needs that address the heads. I'm hurting here, i'm hungry here, i'm sad here. And so I saw my role as a husband and my role as a pastor to meet the needs of the body. Hans Finsle wrote a book years ago on leadership and he made the oh, you're not familiar with this citation.
Speaker 1:If you cite a book, you get a citation on church potluck. So there you go. Oh, that's a good thing. Okay, that's a good thing, that's right.
Speaker 2:I thought it was going to be some like plagiarism thing. No, no, not at all. He drew the picture of a pyramid and saying that many heads, ceos, bosses, feel like they're on the top of the pyramid and everybody down here has got to answer to them. And if they want to get up the pyramid, they got to do that. He said no, invert the pyramid. The real leaders are the ones on the bottom, holding the entire pyramid up and helping others to reach the top, and so that, to me, is what headship is, and responsibility.
Speaker 2:Authority is not really the right word that I want to use for my role as a pastor, a bishop, an elder as much as it is. In fact, i prefer the poimain. I'm the shepherd. I lead, i feed, i love, And by doing that I help the sheep more. Be what God wants them to be.
Speaker 2:So the first pastor that I had out here in Rome, on Bush Arbor I mean it's Bush Arbor Baptist Church on Black Spluff Road When I was the pastor there, they had a wall down the middle of the pews. It had been sawed off because it used to go all the way to the ceiling. Oh, my Women on one side and men on the other And the amens better just come from this side, no amens from over there. Oh, because women do not speak in church. Well, speaking the church, that's right. So well-meaning people taking the Bible at its face value and a consistent argument, have made these deductions that I don't think God ever intended for us to make, and so that's one of the things I was going to bring up, ask about and you've kind of already answered it.
Speaker 1:But when Paul says I permit, not a, woman to one of the scriptures that's cited for women not to have authority over a man in the church is kind of used to make the argument that women should not be the head pastor. Right after that says just women don't speak at all. But yet we don't follow that. But you say some congregations do, actually it sounds like. But so it is interesting how you can take one part of that scripture and say this applies, but this other one doesn't.
Speaker 3:It's difficult, yeah, it really is a scripture argument too. But in how we interpret the scripture, we could do a whole podcast just on how do we interpret the various passages, because it's actually kind of hard to make, are you?
Speaker 4:offering Yeah, we should do that, Which actually that's my podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you're, especially your most recent interview, with Lucy Pepe. Yet Is that right?
Speaker 1:Citation That's an important she's an important resource on this, because So I was going to plug it at the end, but just again it's called. The podcast is called mutuality matters.
Speaker 3:Yes, so it's not always easy to make sense of exactly what's being said in the text, right? Because there are passages about the ones that you've just mentioned, sometimes in like in 1 Corinthians in the same book, that references women who are speaking in church, but you having their head covered. And what's clear to me in the early church period is you seem, it seems like you have apostolic teams that kind of surround and support the work of the various apostles, and that these include men and women, and their rules, roles are not always clearly defined, but they're just all involved. So it's easy to think of examples that might be counter examples to the passages just referenced, you know, from 1st Timothy's, 1st Timothy, or from The way Paul rattles off his thanks.
Speaker 1:Very often It has men and women just mixed in there together. Sometimes women listed first, And so just you're all involved in the ministry.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm thinking obviously people like Phoebe Junia, or maybe Alidia, and there are others Erin might chime in there who are doing various things Sometimes. you know, some scholars think that Phoebe might have been the first person to read the book of Romans and to interpret it to the people who are listening. You know, it's just not so clearly defined. So when you're saying this is the biblical view, you know there's different ways of being biblical Right.
Speaker 1:And I think some people, and probably more on the fundamentalist side, who don't think in those terms, that biblical interpretations means this is what the Bible says, that there is a one right way. And sometimes it's much more muddy than that and much more unclear.
Speaker 3:Another important example I think of is you know, the book of Acts calls Phillips. Four daughters were prophets. Right, you know, it's like, but would they have not been allowed to preach or speak in these churches? Paul planted, you know, but he said oh no, we don't let Phillips daughters speak here. It's probably not, you know. It seems like he's taking a principle, he's modifying and applying it to local situations and circumstances, which is hard for us to make sense of, because we want to read the Bible like it was written yesterday, in English, you know, with our context in mind, which, of course, it wasn't got a pulpit there.
Speaker 2:Fireloft is behind. Yeah right, i actually knew of church where a woman was called to be the minister of music, but she could only face the choir. A man stood at the pulpit to direct the congregation and the songs, because it was behind the pulpit. Oh my Yeah, so that's the, that's deduction for you. That's how it goes.
Speaker 1:So, aaron, yeah, you can go in any direction you want, But my question is also maybe when Paul is writing, it's not clear whether that's a rule for everyone or if he's just making instructions to the church at Corinth. that is seems to maybe be unwieldy and out of control, And maybe there's particular women there who are. I don't know if I've heard something like that, but would you like to elaborate on that or anything else about biblical interpretation?
Speaker 4:Yeah And like, like we've mentioned, these are deeply complex things that have been tackled by really wonderful scholarship on both sides And I would recommend Christians for biblical quality, international and the resources they have there. They have an academic journal and a magazine. In addition to the podcast, i would recommend books by Bill Witt, like Icons of Christ, where he sort of talks about the understanding of women in the roles in the church going all the way back to the New Testament church in Ford and Cynthia Westfall's Paul and Gender.
Speaker 4:These are very meaty theological books. So if you're like one of those petty people that really wants to dig in, got those seminary SAT words, you can go for those. But honestly, even really without, without getting into the weeds of all that, i think one thing I like to just mention is for me it's not even about which side of the issue people fall on, as much as it about the consistency versus inconsistencies. And I appreciate Stephen addressing this, because when you have churches that are really going to double down on women, not speaking, because they're trying to take a very literal interpretation, you don't make a peep in church. I can even, ironically, appreciate that level of application More than I can sort of a less robust Theological application for putting women into certain spaces. and I'll tell you I I'm just not sure how the Southern Baptist Convention is gonna talk about Lottie Moon and any Armstrong.
Speaker 2:Exactly, that's exactly right.
Speaker 4:There's just two biggest mission fund fundraising opportunities that we present in our Southern Baptist churches and Can you elaborate on that a little bit, erin?
Speaker 1:for those of us who aren't Southern Baptist and don't know who those are Absolutely.
Speaker 4:These were women who served as missionaries in various places China was one of the main places for Lottie Moon but they taught, they planted churches, they pretty much did anything that a head pastor would do, but just in another country and context. There's a beautiful write-up actually on Lottie Moon and Christine Hitchcock's book, the significance of singleness, and you can learn about her history and everything that she did as part of her life and and for me It's not even so much Which side people land on, it's just this idea of. Are we thinking consistently and I appeal to my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters here because, well, i disagree with some of the particularities that they assert with the maleness of Jesus and the maleness of the priest being Connected in a really important way, serving at the altar, serving the Eucharist and communion, and which is why women cannot serve as priests, i can at least appreciate, i really do appreciate, and can can ascend to what's behind that Exclusion. And then, to their credit, they were paramount in making spaces For women in the churches in ways that were truly unique and radical, and of course, some of that got reversed during the Protestant Revolution. But or reformation, rather not revolution, there's a very the president reformation when we were eliminating in many ways things like convents and monasteries, some of the places that were made for women to exercise their gifts. Even though they were given Rolls that were not the higher offices of the church, they were at least acknowledged for their contributions and their giftings in the church.
Speaker 4:And I can really appreciate Roman Catholicism's take on thinking, thinking that through for women and and so so, yeah, there's a lot we could tackle with Paul and these verses and some. It depends on where you're coming from, because sometimes There's the, there's a view from creation, order or the Trinity. There's a lot of different avenues people take to get to where they stand on women's role in the home, the church and Society yeah, in marriage, society, but but I would say I think it's worth examining Not just the proof text that we're pulling for this, but really how we let those live out in our churches and whether or not we're being consistent.
Speaker 1:Very nice. And while we're doing proof text, the one that we haven't mentioned on the liberal side, of course is in Galatians 328, that in Christ Jesus, there, there is no male or female, along with slave or free, or Jew or Gentile.
Speaker 2:That's often used as, but these distinctions are wiped clean in that so we underscore one of the things that Aaron said about inconsistency, because on the missionary side, that we send these women, not just Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong, but hundreds of women missionaries out there to do The same kind of church planting, you know, pastoral work. But we had to figure out we can't call them ordained. So let's come up. How about the word commission? We do exactly the same thing in Centrima after and then we go walk away smiling. At least we didn't ordain them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's funny. So I was this just this past week. I was preparing a talk on Hildegard of being in who's a 12th century. That is, a leader of a Convent female monastery in Germany and how, you know, the Convince provided a place for women to learn that could be educated in similar ways that men were educated in medieval world, and she's kind of a brilliant polymath who does all kinds of stuff. But one of the unique things about her life is that the Pope Commissions her to be a preacher to both men and women. In a world where women could not be priests, there was still this exception. You know. The Pope saw that there was someone who was. He read her theological works And he said she was theologically sound and astute, she had a life of virtue, so she was qualified both theologically and in her moral life, and so he was like. You know, the rules are more like guidelines, you know Like this should be can be applied, you know, to different circumstances and situations. So he actually commissions her to go on a couple of preaching tours. So she is speaking to both men and women, and you know that the Pope doesn't have a problem with this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it just reminds us of the way that, you know, oftentimes Americans, especially with the law, is always up front. Whatever rules or laws We think or should be in place, they're always operating up front like the forefront of our mind. Oftentimes in the Bible and this is true of traditional society The, that's all that stuff is kind of operating in the background and we're looking for the wise, contextual ways to apply it. You know, here and now you have the 10 commandments, for instance, in the Old Testament Kind of serve as a foundation for the other 600 and something commands that come later afterwards, which are all just applications of the 10 commandments in one way or another. And so sometimes at this is we'll talk about, the less mature we are, the more rules we need. Oh and so, god, i had an ooh, but and that's.
Speaker 3:Like God gives them the 10 commandments, like this is there all you need, like, but we don't know how to apply it.
Speaker 3:You know It's like, so in this circumstance, you applies this way and, sir, you know but, perhaps you know, the apostle Paul says something similar when he talks about there's no law for those who are filled with the spirit, implying that the spirit will lead you to act in godly, virtuous, wise ways.
Speaker 3:If you're being led by the spirit Which doesn't mean the you know rules never matter. But it even seems to me that within the New Testament there are times I think this is my kind of interpretation that Paul is applying principles kind of liberally and differently, depending on The social context, the people that he's writing to, what they need in that moment. Sometimes it's chaos, sometimes it's other stuff going on in the culture, sometimes it's the perception of Christianity, what it's doing to marriages or households and the Greco-Roman world, and I think it's just calling for us to be kind of astute readers of the Bible, astute Appliers of the Bible, and not just kind of the Bible says X Without thinking through anything, without thinking any more about it, just applied in the same straightforward way. But some of us crave that right, we want that, that's right for security this so do this.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, you remind me of my father, the plumber, who read the Bible. I call him a great white throne theologian because he always read it on the. He said to me one day he said, see, forget the ten commandments, i'm gonna give you a, the cut down version. Jesus said all the law and all the commandments, hang on these two things, love God and love him. If you can get those two right, yeah, you don't have to worry about the other. So you got them all done, amen.
Speaker 1:That's right. I think we're just about ready to wrap up, but I just had a thought. I want to do a game show. All right, this game show is Complementarian or egalitarian. So just in one quick word your understanding of gender roles. This is these are terms that are often you hear in conservative and evangelical circles, where there's disagreement whether men and women are meant to be completely equals in terms of what they do and their abilities. And For those who you know would say that women are not suitable or not called to be pastoral ministries, they would may probably make an argument or of complementary, that men and women are created differently And so that they have Complementarian roles. And so who wants to get us started on Complementarian versus egalitarian? Steve Drake, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Complementarian I was a Georgia State meat inspector. I was a wind.
Speaker 1:I want to know where this is going.
Speaker 2:I was a Windy xi meat market manager. I know meat Complementarian. I buy the meat and I fix the meat. My wife cooks the meat and serves the meat. Have two completely different roles But they compliment one another. That's where it's going. I think the same thing is true generally speaking in church. They we are equal in essence and, to stand with my southern Baptist friends somewhat Nervously, i think that we still have roles to play. But I want every woman to know in my church and every seminary woman I went to seminary with, to know that I believe they God, can use them in every Function of the church preaching, we talked about preaching. I've never really understood the difference between saying this certain amount of words in this certain way down there or taking that exact same Thing and get behind a pulpit. This is preaching and that's not that. This is teaching and this is preaching. I'm just saying just preach it. Just preach it and let God do with his word what he does with his word. Great.
Speaker 3:Thank you, john. So the whole complementary and egalitarian thing, I don't like it because it's sort of like conservative, liberal, where both words are good, both words are important and I think we really need both of them. So I don't like them being, you know, separated and you know, pitted against one another. Because you know, egalitarian obviously affirms What God says in creation and what you get in the New Testament in redemption that men and women are equal before God. They are stand side by side, shoulder, to share the work of ministry together, of creation and new creation. Complimentary means that men and women are different. In fact, i My sense of why both men and women are needed in ministry is because men and women are different, not because they're the same. So like if you end up saying men and women are basically interchangeable, you don't need the distinction between men and women anymore. But it's because men women often are so different or have complementary Glories and gifts that we actually need both voices in the church and in leadership. It's good, mutual, all right.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and Steven is giving you the approval. So, aaron, complementarian or egalitarian?
Speaker 4:Unlike. Unlike John, i actually hate both words. And that's why your podcast is called mutuality matters, and on the very first episode of our podcast You can hear me rant about why I think both labels are fairly unhelpful. But because my brothers on the show, i think, have already done a wonderful job, sort of sort of going with the words and euphemisms that That escort these concepts, i will simply say mutuality matters All right.
Speaker 1:Thank you all for playing complementarian or egalitarian. Is there anything that has been left unsaid? Aaron, you're sometimes hard to get you to jump in because you're remote. Is there anything that we have left unsaid that needs to be said?
Speaker 4:I actually yeah, because I do have to skedaddle here in just a minute, can't say I can't live, i just use the words to get out all.
Speaker 1:but and I'm not editing it out.
Speaker 4:There's one thing that comes to mind. There's a book by Carolyn Custis James called when life and beliefs collide, and she writes it because a mentor first You taught Sunday school and was so just gifted and teaching the Bible ended up removing herself from her position In the church, not because of leadership or because she was forced to, but because that she felt that in her study of scripture in order to teach it to the other women, she was actually exceeding her husband's knowledge of scripture. And because of her deep, deep sort of, you know, traditional sense in in, in complimentarianism, she believed that to be sinful, that she would know more about scripture than her husband did. And so, in order to actively submit and to, to try to be faithful to what she believed to be true, she stopped studying scripture and stopped teaching scripture to others, so that she could be in in that subordinate role and be able to submit to her husband in that way. And I say this because so Carolyn goes on to write the book about why women need to study scripture and why women need to study theology, and it's really a book about suffering. It's a book about how we apply what the Christian life and how we understand the goodness of God in a world that is just so hard, and it's a book I would actually recommend to everyone, men and women.
Speaker 4:I say that to say the latent effects of some of the things that we're talking about are the biggest dangers of all.
Speaker 4:Not whether or not you have a gendered person preaching you from the pulpit, but I think sometimes damage that is done inadvertently, without thinking, not meaning. I don't believe these messengers at SBC are trying to keep women from learning scripture. I think that would be the last thing that any of them would ever want. But these dangers are real and they exist, and this messaging does more than we intend it to do, and the enemy gets hold of it and does things with it that are actually very damaging to women and men. And so so I just want to end with that and encourage everyone to say that, in the course of our open-handedness and fellowship within disagreement, that we just we'd be diligent in our quest towards faithfulness, in encouraging each other on in our faith. Aaron And I just want to say thank you, stephen, for your words today. It was a pleasure to get to meet you and John always the pleasure. And Dale, thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1:Aaron, thank you that everything was great, but that last statement there was very powerful and it was a great place for us to stop on, unless Steve or John have something that they want to add.
Speaker 2:I'm good. I just want to say thank you, Aaron, for your words too. Pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 3:Hope to meet you in person someday. I just wish that everybody who's been on Twitter or engaged these debates on Twitter could listen to Steve talk about it. You know from his perspective as a Southern Baptist pastor. It's so much better, more winsome and friendly. I mean sometimes stuff on Twitter.
Speaker 1:Twitter looks pretty sinister and damaging, mean-spirited and stuff, and I want to thank all of my guests, but Steve, especially you, because it is difficult coming out and talking about your own tradition when they're doing things that you know you've got your support and yet you're, you know, not sure about the direction it's going. And so thank you for doing that. That's a great thing, and I want to thank our audience for sitting around the table with us today. I hope that we have provided you with some food for thought. We've given you something to chew on, and if you listen to the very end, there may be some leftovers Conversation. That happens after the podcast concludes. We appreciate your support And, as part of that support, please consider subscribing, rating and reviewing Church Potluck, because that's what potluck, that's what podcasts say at the end of all their shows. Wherever you're downloading it, please consider doing that Until we gather around the table next time. This has been Church Potluck. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3:I want to say I think that the CBE group, i DBEI group, the Christians for Biblical Equality International, that Erin mentioned. That was a gummy thing, one of the things I think is great about that organization is they too are committed to and care a whole lot about the authority of scripture, and hold on once again, erin, are you leaving us?
Speaker 4:Yeah, i actually have to go to a meeting that just started, but it's so good to be with all of you. I really wish I could stay for more conversation, but thank you so much And you all have a good time together.
Speaker 1:Erin, thank you so much, And I really appreciated you. You're willing to do this on such short notice And it was really really fantastic. I'll talk to you more later. Bye-bye.
Speaker 4:Okay, all right, see you guys. Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:She was making so much noise in the background. I didn't want to overlap what you were saying there.
Speaker 3:So one of the fears I think out there is that people think because some churches who have embraced women in ordained ministry as pastors have also embraced the LGBTQ plus community as part of their ordained leadership, there's a fear that if you do one, it goes to the other Right. That's the slippery slope argument I was referring to earlier. The CBEI folks are really good about keeping those separate. It's not that one leads to the other. It's like we're just talking about the role of women in the church.
Speaker 1:They've been around for I don't know how many decades now, but it seems like we are singularly focused And this is what we do, and that's hard to do as an organization to stay that singularly focused for that length of time, and so that is admirable.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I'm just wanting to recommend the sources that Erin referenced, because I do think they're. these are not people looking for ways to undermine the scriptures or who are caught up in the spirit of the times. It's not even. they're not even motivated by a kind of more secular feminist movement or philosophy or spirit. It's as they will say you know, let's read the Bible wisely, let's interpret it as best we can, let's listen to the spirit here, keeping holding to the authority of scripture always and being taking seriously a woman's call to ministry and what that can look like you know, and not just diminishing it or, you know, siloing it off, saying, oh, though, that can only be applied in this thing.
Speaker 3:You know, pastor's wife, you know, or children's minister, or something like that.
Speaker 2:My first class in Bible college. This was at Criswell. They said to all these newcomers you can believe anything at this school. Your beliefs can be anything anywhere on the board that they that you want them to be, as long as by using decent hermeneutical devices and staying with the scripture, you can demonstrate your position that way. That opened the initial door for me to say, well, yeah, hey, that's that's. That's a good way to do it. I can handle that, so that, whether it's a matter of speaking in tongues, gay stuff, women in ministry, whatever it is, this is the text I can use. All I have to do is is develop my hermeneutical ability to exegete, not ice egete, you know. Dad used to say don't read something into the Bible, read something out of the Bible, and so that helped me along the way, even as far as seminary, you know, later on.
Speaker 1:So we need to have a podcast where you just come and tell us all of your dad's pithy sayings. Yeah Well, I thought that went well.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah So very cool.
Speaker 2:Just a pleasure. Pleasure to meet you, John.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well yeah, and thank you so much for for for coming, stephen, and if I'll talk to you more about, this set up because I want to.
Speaker 2:I would like to do this for pickleball. I'm a pickleball ambassador here in Roman.
Speaker 1:I can't believe I was going to go to town on your pickleball enthusiasm when you did your introduction and I immediately went to Everett Spring Stuff and I totally forgot to talk about your pickleball obsession.
Speaker 3:So yeah, we do. Our whole family, all of us. You'll play Love and play pickleball. You play down here at the very.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, we live near the courts here, That's good. Well, we play, i play downtown. They say are you going to play tomorrow? I say only if the sun comes up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, That's awesome. Well, again, thank you all so much. That was. that was good, I hope. I hope our audience enjoys it as well. Cheers.