Brace yourselves for a chilling journey as we traverse the shadowy realms of horror and Christianity in the latest season of Church Potluck. Picture this: you're plunged into a world where spine-tingling tension meets a quest for spiritual insight. Sounds like a thrilling ride, right? Buckle up as Clint Peters (creative writing), Curt Hersey (communication), Mike Bailey (political science), and Dale McConkey (sociology), serve up a tantalizing platter of frightful conversations and Christian Curiosity.
This episode is a rollercoaster ride through the eerie world of horror films, from the controversy they stir up to their undeniable magnetism. We unravel the Freudian theory of repression in horror, the medical horrors in The Exorcist, and the origin story of legendary director Wes Craven. On this ride, horror isn't just about jump scares and blood-curdling screams; it's an exploration of fear, the unknown, and our instinctive reactions.
The journey doesn't end there. We turn the spotlights to the '80s, an era that saw music and horror mesh in a way that sparked both dread and fascination. We explore the Christian themes subtly woven into horror films. As we wrap up, we take a step back to appreciate the global horror landscape, understanding how different cultures might perceive and express fear. So, sit tight and let's plunge into the terrifying essence of horror. Are you ready for some goosebumps?
(Description generated with AI, with some revisions.)
The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.
Brace yourselves for a chilling journey as we traverse the shadowy realms of horror and Christianity in the latest season of Church Potluck. Picture this: you're plunged into a world where spine-tingling tension meets a quest for spiritual insight. Sounds like a thrilling ride, right? Buckle up as Clint Peters (creative writing), Curt Hersey (communication), Mike Bailey (political science), and Dale McConkey (sociology), serve up a tantalizing platter of frightful conversations and Christian Curiosity.
This episode is a rollercoaster ride through the eerie world of horror films, from the controversy they stir up to their undeniable magnetism. We unravel the Freudian theory of repression in horror, the medical horrors in The Exorcist, and the origin story of legendary director Wes Craven. On this ride, horror isn't just about jump scares and blood-curdling screams; it's an exploration of fear, the unknown, and our instinctive reactions.
The journey doesn't end there. We turn the spotlights to the '80s, an era that saw music and horror mesh in a way that sparked both dread and fascination. We explore the Christian themes subtly woven into horror films. As we wrap up, we take a step back to appreciate the global horror landscape, understanding how different cultures might perceive and express fear. So, sit tight and let's plunge into the terrifying essence of horror. Are you ready for some goosebumps?
(Description generated with AI, with some revisions.)
The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.
Before we go.
Speaker 2:That came over so much as a joke, because I had just pressed the button. Seriously, yeah, sorry, all right, here we go.
Speaker 1:Here we go, here's Johnny, here's.
Speaker 2:Johnny, that's right. That would be good for this episode, that's right. So actually even something more scarier.
Speaker 3:Your mother is in here with us.
Speaker 2:Do you have your syllabi done?
Speaker 3:Horror, horror. I have the ghost of a syllabi.
Speaker 1:Steltem.
Speaker 2:Well, welcome everyone to Church Potluck, where we are serving up a smorgasbord of Christian Curiosity. I'm your host, dale McConkey, sociology professor and United Methodist pastor, and you know what we say every week. There are two keys to a good Church Potluck Plenty of variety and engaging conversation. And this is exactly what we are trying to do here on Church Potluck Sitting down with friends and sharing our ideas on a variety of topics from a variety of economic disciplines and a variety of Christian traditions. And we have made it official we are now calling this season two of Church Potluck. So welcome everyone to season two. They said it would not last. I don't know who they is, but and I don't know if they said that but- you showed them.
Speaker 2:Good job, that's right. I showed them, that's right. But anyway, welcome to season two. I have really enjoyed doing this podcast and I've enjoyed it for a variety of reasons. I have learned a lot from everyone, but just I have actually learned a lot about all of you and all the guests, even people I've known for many years, just sitting down and talking to new insights and new understanding. So that's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:We're all just sitting here nodding our heads yeah, that's right, that's right. As if that translates, it supports it.
Speaker 2:That's good radio right there we need a hype man say oh yes, absolutely safe, Maybe even an eight.
Speaker 1:And we know you now too what. And we know you too, and you know me now for better or?
Speaker 2:for worse. Amen.
Speaker 5:We could do that.
Speaker 2:Amen, that's right. I was going to have a hallelujah button. I downloaded a long time ago but it never made it. Anyway, I think we're off to a strong start on our official start last week of season two, our conversation about artificial intelligence, and what are we going to be talking about today?
Speaker 4:The power of Christ compels you. Oh, that's the power of Christ compels you. That the power of Christ compels you. The power of Christ compels you. The power of Christ compels you, all right.
Speaker 2:That could go on for a little while longer. Take me back.
Speaker 3:I'm giving Dale a high five off the side. I mean that just, oh my gosh, that puts me in the movie, like every time, because that's like the scene and you can see the sound design in the background. I mean that movie won for sound design at the Oscars as well as screenplay, and yeah, you can just Was that Jurassic Park? Yeah, that's actually was the lost world. It was the sequel, yeah, the exorcist, which changed the horror landscape really in terms of like how we understand movies and especially, I think, with the Christian perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll definitely talk about those things. We'll get there. The power of Christ compels you. When I was looking for this sound, the first thing I came across was not the exorcist but a spoof, and I forgot the name of what the spoof is. When the priest was saying the power of Christ compels you and the person being held down, the zombie like creature, was saying does he really?
Speaker 3:Is it when Jonah Hill is getting? Is it Jonah Hill? It's very well-created. I think it's from what this is the end, or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a really funny scene.
Speaker 2:It was like a little bit, yeah, kind of sacrilegious, but it was like maybe not so much. It's not so compelling, but anyway, we are talking about horror today. Is it a gruesome indulgence of evil or is it a keen insight to the human condition? Is it loitering in the devil's playground or is it proclaiming good over evil? Is it horrid or is it holy? Let's find out, and let's find out from our guests. We are going to introduce our point person for today, professor Clint Peter. Yay, yeah, there we go.
Speaker 3:How's it going? How are you doing? I'm doing great actually.
Speaker 2:You sound like you're doing great.
Speaker 3:I am less panicked than usual, you know, by this time before the semester starts, so I'm feeling pretty good, I think six years will do that for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, that's right. And just wait till the 31st year. And just how overly chill you are about the beginning of the semester, when you should be a little bit concerned about where you're standing right now. All right, well, clint, do a little bit more of a formal introduction to yourself.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, Great. Hey, yeah, Dr Clint Grogaviers, I teach creative nonfiction at Barry and the creative writing program. I love horror. I love movies. I will say by way of introduction that I didn't always like horror. I have a good conversion narrative, which I think applies to this podcast. I used to not understand why people did horror. For me it was like writing a roller coaster. Why would you do a thing that made you like physically upset?
Speaker 2:Man, you're taking away my stuff.
Speaker 3:Oh, I did. Uh-oh, I'm sorry. Well, I'll stop. Tell me when to stop. That's a good part of Clint's confessions. And then we can talk about this later. I had a couple of movies that I watched back to back that just really sort of I was going to say open my eyes, but I should say darkened my eyes and just let me see what horror can do. That I think other genres can do, but maybe not as viscerally.
Speaker 2:Well, I am definitely looking forward to getting into that. Thank you, it's great to have you and our next guest we have Professor Kurt Hersey. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Yay, kurt, thanks for calling me back.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, thank you for coming back. That's excellent, Kurt. Let us know a little bit more about you.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I'm a professor of filmmaking and cinematic arts and communication and, as of recently, chair of the communication department.
Speaker 2:Congrats, excellent and, more importantly, spouse to one of my very first students.
Speaker 5:That is correct. Yes, and Karen Barr at the time was one of your students.
Speaker 2:I'm sure others have asked you this because it's not original, but did you give any thought to when you, kurt Hersey, married Karen Barr, to hyphenating your name? So you would be Kurt Hersey Barr.
Speaker 5:I absolutely suggested it. She said that is way too silly, wow, but I really was kind of hoping for it.
Speaker 2:I think that would have put you all on the map somewhere.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and so I'm a big horror fan. I will say that I am more of a horror than violent kind of more recent horror movies like Saw. That doesn't really give me but a lot of suspense, that kind of thing. 70s, 80s, 90s spent a lot of time watching horror Great.
Speaker 2:Looking forward to hearing more from you. And you know them, you love them. Our third guest, dr Michael Bailey Yay, michael.
Speaker 1:So I made it back to season two. Yes, you did. I was as surprised as the next person. We have doubled your salary for season two as well, much appreciated. Yeah, I teach American politics, which is one kind of horror show at this moment in life I also. I'm just excited about this show. I too like horror. With Kurt, I think I like what I would describe as spooky or paranormal type of horror more.
Speaker 1:The rest, I would, even I'd like to have a conversation at some point about what whether all scary films should be described as horror. I think horror is sort of like a sub genre of scary, and so I'm curious we're going to go with the extra stuff.
Speaker 2:We're good. Well, thank you so much. It's good to have all of you here. Thank you so much. And before we actually jump into the material, I do have just a one quick and a few quick announcement for us. We have two more countries. Yes, we're now up to 27 countries. Welcome to Portugal. Any commentary on their music here?
Speaker 1:I thought it was.
Speaker 2:Okinawa first, and this is Australia. Yeah, oceania is going crazy. Now we got two downloads, one in New Zealand and one in Australia. Yeah, so welcome to our newest countries. I haven't done it yet, but I have bought a world map that I'm going to be putting up here. Oh man, yeah, that's going to be great visual material for a podcast Right, but a global map.
Speaker 1:We can describe the pins. You know, that's right.
Speaker 5:There can't be that many more countries left right.
Speaker 3:There's 28. Right, that's it. You got England right, so we're good.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to make a joke about discipline. You clearly are not teaching in, but anyway, geography, that's right. All right, clint. Hey, your choice. You're going to choose scholar mode or enthusiastic preacher mode.
Speaker 3:Oh I enthusiastic preacher mode, All right.
Speaker 2:All right. Psalm 101, clint oh versus three and four.
Speaker 3:Amen.
Speaker 2:I will not look with approval on anything that is vile. I will have nothing to do with what is evil. Ephesians 4.27. Do not give the devil a foothold. Philippians 4.8. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. So why in the world should we be watching horror movies?
Speaker 3:Well, maybe you shouldn't, man, I mean, you know that. I guess one anecdote I'll give is the origin story of director West Craven, who did Nightmare on Elm Street and One of the most horrible movies I've ever seen, which is the Last House on the left. He also did the Hills have Eyes and then, of course, the scream movies which I do love and kind of grew up on. But his mom was very fundamentalist Baptist. His dad died when he was very young, was a very angry person, had a heart attack when he was 50 and his father yes, his father.
Speaker 3:So West was raised by his mom very fundamentalist, I mean, he couldn't watch movies like not even horror movies, just movies, and that just drove him to make all of these other Scary ugly things. Actually, before he got into horror movies he was in pornography. So he'd porn first and then horror. So his mother was probably less than enthusiastic about that term. I mean, one of the things I would say just up front is you know, the repressed always returns, right, like this goes back to Freudian theory. Robin Wood was one of the earliest film critics to really sort of scholarly engage horror, right, and he repurposes Freud's return of the press to talk about how many horror movies are kind of about that.
Speaker 3:Something gets repressed and it comes back in very monstrous ways and doesn't go away and that could be sexuality, it could be, you know, doubt, which is, I think, kind of what the exorcist is about, right, like it's his father Keras, he's his mom just died and he's really struggling with his beliefs.
Speaker 3:Right, the first half of that movie someone pointed out that I was reading isn't actually Cosmic horror, it's not like spiritual horror, it's actually like a medical odyssey, right, you see the poor girl played by Linda Blair just going through all of these awful medical Procedures. You know the lore is and I don't I couldn't find out if this is actually true that she had to go through a real Procedure that caused blood to shoot out of her neck. It looks awful, if you've ever seen it. She gets like a spinal tap, and all of these horrendous things, none of which have to do with the devil right, all have to do with, like you know, medical science, and in the novel, keras is actually a lot more of a doubter than he has in the film right, like he's, just like. There's no way this is real, this doesn't exist. I mean, it's gradually sort of converted through his experience and then okay, by the way, we were gonna say spoilers, right.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was just trying to bring that up myself, that it's a good time to mention that throughout the entire episode, I'm sure we will have spoilers. Most of the films we'll be talking about are quite old, and so it shouldn't be a problem, but there might be some contemporary ones, so just be aware of that.
Speaker 3:So I mean any of the exercises in old film, but a lot of people haven't seen it. You know, especially, I think, of the younger generation, maybe I don't know. You know the thing rewatching the exorcist I realized how slow of a movie it is especially kind of true for all yeah yeah, it's just, we had a lot more patience.
Speaker 2:Well, and they flow like novels rather than the independent medium that they've come to be.
Speaker 2:I think yeah absolutely yeah well, let's go back to the roller coaster imagery. So yeah, there are two reasons that I don't like horror. I'm not a big fan. First of all is why scare myself, right, yeah, why do that to yourself? You know that's not a pleasant experience for me, but so I'm always intrigued by people who do find pleasure in being scared and being Anyway. So that's the first one. And the second one, I do think even though I did it in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way early on, that there there is a sense of, if you're focusing on Evil, if you are thinking about these things, that you are somehow allowing yourself to engage in evil forces. You know, I might I would say that my, my wife was definitely raised in this, and so I was influenced by, by her perspective that to be Watching these things is kind of opening a door, glorifying evil rather than resisting it.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it's kind of like the Nietzsche quote right, like if you're focusing hunting monsters you might become one kind of repurposing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I know that quote. I like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean a lot of people. A lot of people ride roller coasters, right. It's a very interesting thing, right. I still don't kind of like them, like I get them.
Speaker 2:I get that kind of a thrill more than being scared right right.
Speaker 3:So I mean, they've they Psychologists in a study I don't have at the tips of my fingers right now. I have, like, hooked people up to machines and have them watch horror movies, right, and they, what they've noticed is that there's like spikes in adrenaline as they watch horror, and a lot of people are adrenaline junkies, right. So I'm just getting that right right up front, right, because I think that's a lot of reason people go on roller coasters. That ring true to either of you two white water rafting or things like that.
Speaker 5:Yeah well, and it also makes me think about why do people watch sad movies? Because it's gonna make you sad. Why would you do that to yourself? Yeah right, it's just kind of a flip on the emotions right, all mark movies are.
Speaker 2:Let's go back to happy, shiny people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I will say just for me personally, one of the big things I get is, just with my background and like environmental studies, and you know, being a natured dude, I like looking at human animality and I feel like what do you mean by that human animal? Like like Things that get us on a very sort of gut, primordial level, right, emotional physical reactions that my like Conscious.
Speaker 2:You know, prefrontal cortex doesn't really have control so nicks or example yeah, exactly no, for sure, for real, like he's saying that for my benefit, right, really, and I avoid them as much as I possibly can, and that reaction and paying attention to that process and questioning my own sort of body's reaction like, well, why am I reacting that way when I see the exorcist?
Speaker 3:Why am I reacting the way that I do? Or the two films that really converted me are very much staples in the contemporary Horror canon the Babadook and it follows, which I strongly recommend anyone watch. Their fairy, their masterpieces, go ahead and give some background.
Speaker 2:You said you got a conversion story, so go ahead.
Speaker 3:And I mean I didn't like horror, like I was just. I mean I well, okay, deep dive. I was four years old and some knucklehead older cousins showed me jaws when we were living on an island and I Kind of looked like the kid that gets eaten and that just like traumatized me, a kid, and apparently traumatized a lot of people.
Speaker 3:There's one psychologist that study has studied what's called the jaws effect. There's people of a certain generation that have like higher counts of hydrophobia and I was just like why would you do that to somebody? But then I watched these other movies circa 2015 and I was like, oh, I get it now. Like these movies are getting at something in a way that's employing sort of the physical, emotional reactions and in such a way that I don't know how else you would do that right. I don't know how else you would get at that on such a God level. So I think it speaks. I mean, horror can speak to the mind, obviously, but I think it also just really speaks to the body.
Speaker 2:Well, how about speaking to the soul? So yeah and that's yeah. Are there things about the horror genre that speak to the divine in the spiritual world? Because I would say that there's probably a lot of Christians and other people of faith who would say no to that. Senses that there is an argument to made where horror does really play into to spiritual.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean there's a lot of horror movies that actually legitimize the church, right Like. I would love to do a podcast later just about vampires. But you could see, the lore of vampires is like Reaffirming the church's power and you ultimately see that in in the exorcist films and in films like that.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say you've never heard Jesus mentioned more often than.
Speaker 4:The power of grace compels you. The power of grace compels you.
Speaker 2:I could just let this go on. This goes on for about a minute and a half. I think the power of grace compels you.
Speaker 3:My favorite version. So the exorcist was this huge success. I think it was the highest grossing R rated movie at the time. It was the first horror movie ever nominated for best picture and there were a bunch of like iterations.
Speaker 3:But one of my favorites is, of course, the masterpiece called Constantine with Keanu Reeves, which is like an action version of the and he's like this, like very I don't I can't remember if he's an alcoholic, but he kind of acts like it, like he's got a chip on his shoulder and he's just, he's like a. He's like a grumpy old Sergeant just solving cases but, like you know, ex-exercising people. So that's really fun. So, yeah, I think horror. One of the other things I value about it is how much it shows me what I value on like a very deep Level, and that can be again my body in the term in terms of like body horror. It can be my family, right, and I think it can be the soul, right, and show us like how deeply we value the soul on Not just like an intellectual level but on a very like animal level.
Speaker 1:I'm curious whether, for me at least, it's difficult to imagine what a genuinely atheistic horror movie would be. I, it seems like most horror movies trade off or rely on a sense of the unknown, the numinal sense that there is another world lurking, and I think part of that is Part of what almost every horror movie has is a sense of you can almost kind of wish it away Because it can't be real. But then it really is real and so in terms of it's a, you know, I don't know if I affect on the soul, but I think that it resonates with what Christians believe, which there is a world beyond the world we see, and it is very real and terrifying, and in part because we can't control it very much.
Speaker 2:And I've always found it interesting and clean. You've already alluded to this. This is a horror genre is one of the places where Christianity gets to be the hero rather than the heel right that very often it is the, the people of faith. It is that they are the ones that have the power over Demonic forces. Are there the ones that that acknowledge its reality, like you were saying, michaels?
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I also, if you don't mind, kind of hits you back with the Bible quote you can based kind of going to go in against the one you were saying earlier. So this is Job 41, 12 through 15. I will not fail to speak of the lot, the liethans limbs, its strength and its graceful form. Who can strip off its outer coat? Who can penetrate its double coat of armor? Who dares open the doors of its mouth? Ringed about with fearsome teeth, its back has rows of shields tightly sealed together. Each is so close to the next that no air can pass between. Its snorting throws out flashes of light. Its eyes are like the rays of dawn. Flames stream from its mouth. Sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from its nostrils as if from a boiling pot over burning reeds. That is horrifying Also.
Speaker 3:Just good, I love that like there's like a scrumptiousness, yeah, and it goes on. I'm not done. Look, what I have here is like it keeps going and going and so I mean, yeah, this is horror, right. So part of it might be that that that definition thing kind of hinted at earlier is like, well, what is horror? I'll share a movie going experience I had recently. I saw the. It's a haunting film. It's called come and see Kurt. Have you heard of this? It's from Belarus. Well, it might actually be a Soviet film, but it takes place in Belarus.
Speaker 2:You haven't seen a Belarusian?
Speaker 5:Probably not that boy.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's, the boy was just wandering through, trying to avoid the Nazis.
Speaker 3:Yep, pretty much. Oh, can I say it is dreadful. It is one of the most horrifying films I've ever. Yeah, Would you call that a horror movie? I can't. I experienced a lot of horror and dread and gore, right Like some real gory, nasty, terrific. But because it's historical we could slumped in with like historical film.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't yeah, I'm not even worried about how it'd be classified by the old blockbuster, but you know what would make it a horror? I mean, it is awful, yeah, and it is very scary. But I'm curious what you would. Are you prepared to say what you think a horror movie is?
Speaker 3:I I am not, because I actually think it's a very like loosey-goosey genre. I think that's probably right. You can call a lot of things horror that normally don't get classified in Horn. We could probably think of some off the top of our heads right now. So would you call Jaws horror, sure, why not? I mean I. So I'm gonna say I don't know, and I'm, you know, you know me, I got long hair, I wear Hawaiian shirts and sandals every day, like I don't like to be pinned down right. Yeah, I am very open to different definitions of horror. I know that gets into problems of like well, what are we even talking about? And blah, blah, blah. So different people have to try to define it in different ways. So I'm gonna pull one of the books here I have over here. Our former Dean, tom Kennedy, gave me this. It's called the philosophy of horror or paradoxes of the heart, by Noel Carroll.
Speaker 3:Citation yeah, and for him, all horror is essentially monster stories. Like, if you go back in time it's always about, like, if you go to the caveman days, what were they talking about? Well, huge mastodons and dire wolves, right? I would push back a little bit on that because, well, first, we don't know what they were talking about, right? Second of all, like I'm not a hundred percent sure every horror story is a monster story, but it's possible, like you can see, come and see, as all the Nazis, or just war, but then it would be.
Speaker 1:I think it'd be interesting push this back further is what is a monster?
Speaker 1:and I'm not trying to be academic here- I'm trying to sort of yeah, hint at, I think that I don't know that this would cover all horror movies and I don't know if it's the essence of horror movies. I think it's a characteristic of a lot of horror movies, as I suggest, to suggest that there's a lot beyond the rational world that we Really cannot control and there's the things that we, that we, can't see. Yeah, this other world is the most terrifying one. So I don't think of a slasher film as a horror movie necessarily. But Jaws is, because Jaws seems very personal and it doesn't make any sense for a fish to be that personal. It does seem to have a monster quality and by monster, even if it's the same type of creature that we know in the natural World, like a wolf or a lion, I think to be a monster it has to have some other element mix into it of Intentionality or something beyond what is normal.
Speaker 2:For that I'll tell you what I want to get the. I want to get the spiritual element in this a little bit. Oh, kurt, her see begins his notes that he sent to me about the origin of horror and Christianity. He dates it back to God's Bell and Jesus Christ superstar, which I actually like, those movies which I get criticized for quite a bit.
Speaker 2:But you didn't mean that those were horror movies themselves, but you just kind of the origin story that you wanted to tell yeah, just this idea of pop Christianity that that came about.
Speaker 5:I was born in 1970 so I wasn't necessarily cognizant of this, you know earlier. But the way that we started having musicals and there seemed to be kind of the hippie movement that Champions Jesus and takes Jesus not necessarily as a biblical figure but as a pop culture, figure.
Speaker 2:This is really, as far as I can tell, the first time where Jesus is like, pulled away from the institutional church, and just pop culture is Using Jesus as a character, independent of you know the strict biblical Interpretation right and then how that kind of swirls with this focus on revelation and the publishing of late great planet earth.
Speaker 5:And do you want to give a quick? Citation that's very pop culture. But yeah, do you want to give just a brief little description of like Great Planet Earth?
Speaker 2:Actually, I don't know this very well because I was never drawn to them, but I do know that they're apocalyptic and you know the left behind series I grew up in a charismatic church of God, Mount Peron.
Speaker 5:This was very active. This idea that we are living in the end times. You know you've got to read Book of Revelations, which I was going to mention. If you want to talk about horror. Book of Revelations is a horror movie, 100 percent yeah. And so the way that this kind of apocalyptic vision from the Book of Revelations and that starts circulating with books like Lake, I was going to interrupt you for a second.
Speaker 2:Mount Peron didn't teach you well enough, because it's revelation. What did I say? Revelations Plural, yeah, but it's okay. I am not saying that it is. I mean very pedantic right here, but there's going to be some listeners out there saying he's not even saying it right.
Speaker 5:I'm not saying it's better, I'm just saying I was probably more so, thinking of the Iron Maiden song Revelations, which is exquisite itself. Okay, gotcha. So yeah, book of Revelation only one, yes, yes, singular. So how that mixes with horror and really, I think, informs movies like the Exorcist. There's a number of other movies. The Omen, of course, is really important in that kind of post-apocalyptic revelation. Everything's going to end, the Antichrist is coming, and again that's kind of we don't necessarily see the Christianity, but it's like the Omen series is so focused on not necessarily biblical but pop culture interpretations of revelation that people are writing about at the time.
Speaker 1:There's also a difference right between a Christian in a prescriptive sense saying this is trying to promote a particular Christian vision, and Christian is emerging from a Christian worldview or tradition or set of tropes and I think in those movies all really just absolutely depend upon those Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yes, May I read some more? You may, Is that okay? I'm going to be a trivia. Let me ask you guys what do y'all think that? Gunnar Hansen, you may know this what do you think Gunnar Hansen, the guy who played Leatherface in the original Texas Chainsaw massacre, what do you think his job was before he played Texas Chainsaw?
Speaker 2:The fact that you're asking is, I'm guessing, philosophy professor. Oh, you're so close.
Speaker 3:You're so close. I don't know.
Speaker 3:It's a P word, it's a P word Preacher, professor of poetry. He was a poetry professor at the University of Texas. He had his masters in creative writing from the UT and, yeah, he studied and he wrote poetry and then Toby Hooper saw him and in his words he filled the door and he's like you got to be, you got to be my movie. I mean, you know, texas Chainsaw was like this extremely low budget film made by a bunch of really just film school students and like small time actors. So he got paid very little, but he's a good writer and so another book I would strongly recommend is called Chainsaw Confidential by Gunnar Hansen.
Speaker 3:Citation and it's actually way more well written than you would think, because, again, he has this training in poetry and this attention to language From UT, from UT, yeah, from Horns, yeah, I will say this book is hard to find.
Speaker 2:From Horns. That sounds like horror. That does.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But you know, here's one of the things he writes in the back when he's trying to explain like, why horror? Because you know he also gets these questions a lot right, and I think more so back in the day in the 70s, when this would come out right. Fun fact about Texas Chainsaw it was banned outright in the UK and I think either the same day or the same year that happened, the Museum of Modern Art in New York selected it to preserve in their archives, which is just crazy. So he writes horror is as old as human consciousness, as old as our ability to tell tales, or maybe even older. There was a time when the world was a dark mystery. Demons lurked in every shadow. Anything unexplained was the work of witchcraft and monsters. These first tales tried to explain the mysteries and expel what was out there in the dark.
Speaker 3:So by trying to understand them. We can diffuse them I love that, that's his idea yeah.
Speaker 2:Given what he just said, why do you think horror has persisted in this age of science and even grown in some ways? That the horror theme, you would think that science were explaining more and more, and so we don't have to create monsters, we can explain things through the physical universe.
Speaker 1:Getting back to the original question, one of the original questions that you asked, I think the ongoing presence of horror is pretty decent evidence, at least about our moral anthropology, about how we are constituted and how we're built and what we do respond to.
Speaker 1:Whether it's a physical level of things that we don't know. But the fact that we still today respond to spooky things like ghosts and demons suggests that we're prone to being open to those ideas at least, and if not ideas something below the dignity of ideas that we're still very responsive to. I you know CS Lewis would talk about how we have these kinds of appetites and that they suggest something about real in the world. And so we have hunger, and so we have food that satisfies that, and we have sexual lust, and that can be satisfied as well, and then we might have these other kinds of needs, such as the need for completion, a spiritual completion which, he would suggest, indicates there might be something in the real world that actually can meet that. Our response to the subterranean and the spooky and the numinal, I think, would suggest that we're. I mean millions of people have claimed to have seen ghosts, millions of people.
Speaker 3:And smart people. Smart people, Not just crazy people. Yeah.
Speaker 1:People on this hall, I know, have made this particular, you know, claims. I think that we may be rational, more rational in some sense, but I don't think you change overnight at least our physicality. You know how we're constituted.
Speaker 3:And yeah, I totally agree. And new technologies bring new horrors right. So when we invented the atom bomb, all of a sudden there is this explosion of horror movies Literally, yeah, exactly, and figuratively, yeah nice, About like what would happen in the nuclear apocalypse, right, All of these movies. We started traveling in space, Boom. Now we got all of these alien movies, right what happens when we encounter the other. And now it's AI, right Now it's Megan, it's you know what's going to happen when you know technology takes over us or vice-a-versa. So I think, like it just there's just more, it just keeps getting made, you know.
Speaker 5:Yeah, this idea of horror is symptomatic, I think is really interesting in how what scares us in the kinds of flow of different movies says something about society at the time that they're being produced. Right, and you know there were. You talk about us being rational but, like in the 90s, there was this turn towards faith, or at least the unknown, not necessarily Christian, right? I think X-Files is a great example of this. And then post 9-11, there's been a lot written about horror changes after post 9-11. Oh, which have.
Speaker 5:And we had a kind of turn back towards people as the perpetrators of violence, not as much the supernatural. Yeah, 100% yeah.
Speaker 3:I like that. Yeah, isn't that when the satanic panic just like ended?
Speaker 5:Yeah, Well, it's more. Yeah, it was kind of like 90s, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and going back even farther, I mean so Frankenstein, written by a disgustingly young 21-year-old, Mary Shelley, famously, you know, on a weekend with her hubby Percy, and you know Lord Byron that was at the time Hanging out writing books.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know just as you did. It's a scheme. It's Switzerland Creating a new genre.
Speaker 3:Hey, Michael, we got smartphones. Now Look at all the, look what we do with smartphones. You know, yes, created two new genres. I mean, that was, in a sense, a horror reaction to the Enlightenment. Our horror is actually that we're losing spirituality, that we're losing touch with another sense of self, with spirituality. We're becoming computers.
Speaker 1:We're becoming computers.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know as we understood computers in the 1900s or 1800s.
Speaker 5:sorry, I wasn't going to mention because we talked about genre and just to kind of revisit that for a minute. More contemporary we talk less about genres, categories and more about discursive genres that genres are largely formed based around how we talk about culture, and so the act of talking about a film as being a horror film is what makes it a horror film.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting.
Speaker 5:There's a lot of different categories that we are scientific about. There's marketing, and that's the other way that genres use, because you have to be able to market a film and if you can't tell what genre it is, who's going to be your audience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there's a science in Blockbuster. Oh wait, never mind, there was. There are tags in Netflix. There are tags in Netflix, that's right. Yeah, there are tags in Netflix that tell me what it is.
Speaker 5:But one of the interesting categories that I talked about is like the surprise ending genre, because people talk about movies like Sixth Sense. Citizen Kane and what was the one with Kaiser says that oh, usual suspects yeah. There are a group, otherwise they really have nothing in common with those films, but they're all surprise ending and so they kind of create this discursive genre. That's interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is interesting. Well, I don't have a game show for today, but instead of a game show, we do have Hooray for Hollywood. We've got movie reviews. Yeah, we have movie reviews, so this was like a three-minute-long song. I could have just played it the whole time. Let's not. You should have gone with Shrewsbury.
Speaker 5:Clanning. All right, so Can we give each other thumbs up and thumbs down?
Speaker 2:Hooray for Hollywood. Well, we shall see. Maybe I have something loaded up that might serve that same purpose, but you are welcome to give thumbs up and thumbs down to the reviews as well. I tell you what. Let's start with Kurt. Oh yeah, surprise, surprise Okay.
Speaker 5:Twist there. We're gonna hand you over to the rest of the panel, all right. So when we first started talking about doing this show, I plucked this film out of obscurity in my brain because it brought together so many topics that I was thinking about when I thought about Christianity, horror and especially film. It's a 1986 film called Trick or Treat that I guess the rest of the panel could not even download. Is this correct, right?
Speaker 3:I could not find it. I could not. Yeah, I didn't look super hard, I looked medium hard, okay there was a.
Speaker 2:I looked hard enough until I found a website that says it's not streaming anywhere. I found a couple of those, yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah, there was a DVD release at one time. It's been a while ago, but the reason I wanted to bring it up is because it is kind of the confluence of so many things happening in culture and Christianity and horror. So it's 1986. It's coming out of the late 70s, early 80s. When I was a young person in church I remember being taken to a symposium about the dark side of music, that rock and roll, the beat, and they would talk about the horrors of bands like Black Sabbath, ozzy Osbourne, electric Light Orchestra, earth, wind and Fire.
Speaker 2:Right. So let me interrupt you, for you here for a second, so very quickly. I was a youth director. It would have been a little bit later than that, but I was a youth director at a church for a summer and the pastor did not screen this person that he said, yeah, come do a Sunday movie. And it was about the evils of music, right. And so it starts off with the heavy metal, but then it got into narrow and narrow, right. So even secular music is bad. Even Amy Grant is bad. His funnel kept going down and down until.
Speaker 2:But this music I'm selling here for my music featuring a beloved pirate. That is wonderful, wholesome Christian music, and so everything else on the planet, it seemed, was evil, except for his music that he was peddling that night. Was it Captain Hook?
Speaker 5:Was that the band?
Speaker 2:No, is it Love and Pirate? I have long since forgotten. But anyway, that was anyway, so I've taken over your review. Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 5:So yeah, so you had all of this panic about rock music and how it's going to make you. You're not going to be saved, you're somehow going to be converted into an evil juvenile delinquent. So that's going on, along with the whole Book of Revelation, apocalyptic Vision. Go ahead, enerjak.
Speaker 2:I was going to say, to be fair, this is the time when I would say some of the bands of the day did seem to be leaning into the dark forces and the evil. I hear Black Sabbath and Judas Priest and there were some that that here to four. I don't remember bands that were like that, but really kind of entertaining Right.
Speaker 5:Yeah, definitely as a marketing kind, and I guess this was this possibly would have been about the time shout at the devil came out, motley crew, which they were definitely traffic and imagery and decided to make that a marketing tool for themselves. Oh, and this was also the air of the satanic panic which we don't even have time to get into, but hopefully that's like another podcast.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it might be. Yeah. So this movie brings all of that together, along with some pop culture figures of the time. The premise is that Sammy Kerr, a heavy metal superstar, dies in a fire and his biggest fan played by Skippy from Family Ties, with not very long hair but long enough to look like a heavy metal person at the time he's very distraught and he starts listening to the lyrics and he listens to the album backwards which that was another big thing at the time play them backwards and discovers that there is some sort of ceremony and he's got to get them to play it live on the radio. So he goes to his local DJ, played by Gene Simmons of KISS, and convinces him to play the song, and a local preacher, played by Ozzy Osbourne, talks about the evil of the music, and so he gets Gene Simmons to play the record backwards on air and it summons Sammy Kerr from the grave. And then lots of things happen and it's actually a really horrible movie, but it is delightfully horrible.
Speaker 2:And is it written to kind of as a parody of the Christian perspective of heavy metal is bad or does it reinforce it?
Speaker 5:I think calling it a parody would be too kind, because I think it's playing with those ideas, but it's not like self-conscious enough I would say to call it a parody. I mean, it's doing some parody, of course, because Gene Simmons and Ozzy Osbourne are in it, right, right, but now I think it's somewhat of a money grab with some of that going on behind it. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1:That's genuinely terrifying.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's exactly I found this. I said this is perfect for the episode I will have nightmares now because of that. All right, Mr Clint, or Dr Clint. I apologize, Dr Clint. What are you reviewing for us?
Speaker 3:I wanted to bring everyone's attention to the Exorcist 3. Part 3. Not I don't think casual movie goers will have watched this as much. I think horror fans are definitely aware of it. It's kind of famous in horror circles as having one of the quintessentially good jump scares, and if you watch it, you'll know Is this with the baby.
Speaker 5:No, no, it's with the scissors. Sorry, I'm thinking of Omen 3.
Speaker 2:So people who are totally clueless about filmmaking and everything. Tell us what a jump scare is.
Speaker 3:So jump scare is when you go ahh, it's surprise, I have a book I could, yeah, whatever. Yeah, it's just you get surprised. Yeah, I mean you get it. Is it a pop-up book? It's so scary. No, it's this, okay, fine, it's the book of horror, the anatomy of fear in film. Citation Matt Glasby.
Speaker 3:It makes a great coffee table book, guys. I don't know if you can tell Big ol' skull and crossbones, so anyway he tells, like, how fear works and he talks about because you know, horror. I mean, one of the things that gets annoyed to me is when people say film isn't scary, it's because they don't have jump scares. Right, they define scary as jump scares and horror is like wait, it's got a lot of different elements right, and they talk about, for instance, dead space, of course, the subliminal which we've been talking about.
Speaker 3:So for the author here, it's just what's called the unexpected, anything that surprised us, from jump scares to plot twists, Kurt, as you were mentioning earlier. Used by everyone from Val Luton to James Wan, jump scares are good way to shock the audience and when done well, the increase our overall anxiety levels which horror uses to, as I think Gunnar Hansen talks about in his book, is it brings people into the present tense, right, it like increases their blood flow and we pay attention, or eyes grow wide, things like that. But there's also, like lots of other types of fear right, the uncanny, the unstoppable, which I think creeps up in a lot of especially cosmic and spiritual horror and no country fold men is a little bit about the unstoppable.
Speaker 3:I think that's really kind of a horror movie. What a great example yeah.
Speaker 2:I've never thought of that as a horror. Yeah, that movie is all Michael.
Speaker 5:Yeah, me neither, because he's essentially like Jason, where he just keeps coming.
Speaker 3:And he's like, quasi like mystical. Yeah, he is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think he's clearly death. You know, just because, even with the twang, yeah, point toss, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Michael Bailey's on the board for the most interesting insight. There you go.
Speaker 5:I do think the jump scare, though there's the cognitive aspect to it right and cognitive film theory, you know, has done some experimentation where it's this kind of yeah, it's a physiological response which I think is different than a plot twist. Right, and that way, yeah especially the viewing experience.
Speaker 3:That's a different point. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, and I definitely didn't mean to like slam dunk on jump scares Like I like a good jumps and like like anybody. Okay, just a just a little bit of backstory to Exorcist three. So we're, it's directed and written by William Peter Badi, who wrote the original Exorcist novel. So Exorcist novel sells like hotcakes. I think it's in bestseller list for like 40 weeks or something or four months. It's incredible. Obviously the movie does really well. He has no interest in doing a sequel, but I think the quote I think I wrote it down is for the sequel, exorcist two. They offered me a dizzying amount of money but I don't know if that money compensates for how bad it is. The Exorcist two is an notoriously crappy movie with a very unfortunately in the midst of alcoholism Richard Burton. It's an incredibly hokey movie. If you've all seen it it's a long time. It's bizarre. I saw.
Speaker 3:Psycho two. Yeah, I actually like like Psycho two yeah that poor guy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it was Anthony Perkins. That movie ruined his career, I know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, his son, osgood Perkins, is a fantastic director of horror films. I was going to recommend the Black Coat's Daughter, which is it's disturbing. It's not for the faint of heart, but it's a really and it actually deals with spiritual.
Speaker 2:Where's the rabbit hole button?
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, so going back, it's really. Thank you. Thank you, Dale. Okay, so he has such a bad experience in Exorcist two, bladdy's like okay, I am going to direct Exorcist three. It goes into development hell for a while. He writes the book. Instead novel, which is called Legion, comes out in 1983. Also a big success. So he finally gets it together and it comes out in 1990. But there's actually unfortunately, a bunch of well, actually I would say fortunately. Let me correct myself.
Speaker 3:I think the Exorcist three is one of the few examples of where studio meddling has made the film better. Against spoiler alerts. But Bladdy's original intention was to not even have an exorcist in the film, that instead the protagonist would basically just shoot the antagonist in the head at the end. And that was the end and it's, and I've seen it. You can actually, if you have the Scream Factory Blu-ray, as I do, you can watch the director's cut which they had to put together with like old VHS footage. So it looks kind of crappy because it's VHS, but also it's just such a it just ends on like I don't know, it doesn't stick the landing.
Speaker 3:So actually I like the studio meddling on that one. But George C Scott is in. It is amazing. The first I was telling Dale this right. The first 30 minutes are, I think, really funny. Like, and you don't expect that, if you don't mind, I'm going to read some of the dialogue from the film. You know he, george C Scott, plays the cop Ketterman from the original movie played by Lee Jacob, who died so they had to recast him, wait and the first exercise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you remember Ketterman, played by Lee Jacob.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, he. So Lee Jacob dies and they can't cast. They're great actors I know, and George C Scott is a great second stream.
Speaker 1:Great method actors. How did they get into this role with the, the like possessive? I don't know.
Speaker 3:You know George C Scott dida. Bunch of horror. He was in Firestarter. He was in the changeling, which I think is an excellent movie. You know he's an interesting guy but he's like he's not as a director too, by the way.
Speaker 1:Is he Campbell Scott, no Campbell Scott yeah.
Speaker 2:I did not know that. I'm just going to turn the microphone, my microphone, off here.
Speaker 3:Okay. So he has a friend who is a Catholic priest and they every year, in the anniversary of the death of their friend, father Charis, who of course was sacrificed the very first movie it's been 15 years they always go out and see it's a wonderful life to like cheer themselves up, and then they have some like funny debates about religion, and here's one of them. This is George C Scott. Would a God who is good invent something like death? It's not a very popular idea, father. Father comes back. Well, you wouldn't want to live forever? Yes, I would, you'd be bored. I have hobbies. So there's some good stuff. And then, of course, it turns very dark and very bleak.
Speaker 3:And the character actor, brad Dorf, probably most famous for being the voice of Chucky from the Child's Play films. He was also the doc in Deadwood. He got nominated for an Emmy if you ever saw Deadwood, the Western. He plays a reincarnated spirit of a serial killer who was put back in the body of Father Charis by the demon who is being exercised in the first film as revenge against Father Charis. Who, again, george, he's got his friends. That seems to be mixing all sorts of religions going on there and genres, so actually.
Speaker 3:I've spoiled it, but you don't know what's happening for the first half, two thirds of the film. Unlike the Exorcist, it is way more of a who done it and it's way more of a mystery, which I actually think pulls the film along. It's way shorter than the Exorcist as well. It's probably about 98 minutes or so, and so it goes along at a pretty decent clip. I would just recommend it. I really like it against George E Scott Fantastic. One of my pet peeves in films are dream sequences. I feel like they just get thrown out Word and. But this one is a very awesome dream sequence that you just have to go watch it. It has cameos by Fabio, a very young Patrick.
Speaker 2:Very dreamy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, very dreamy, Fabio, a young Patrick Ewing, Larry King has an angel and a young Samuel L Jackson, who are only in this dream sequence that George E Scott is in.
Speaker 1:What was the lure, apart from money? You know for that, Do you think?
Speaker 3:For William Peter Blady.
Speaker 1:I just mean to get these actors on board. You're gonna be in a dream, I think they like the scr-.
Speaker 3:Oh for the cameos Samuel.
Speaker 1:L Jackson was. Yeah, he wasn't known but. Fabio was George E Scott, you know.
Speaker 3:I don't know. It's like hey, Patrick Ewing, you want to be in a movie.
Speaker 1:Was it George E Scott's dream?
Speaker 3:It is George E Scott's dream.
Speaker 1:It doesn't seem. It seems like a young man's dream, it doesn't seem like an old. I'm gonna be quiet.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's okay, and it's in like a giant cathedral and there's this boy that's been that you know has been murdered, and he comes and he talks to George E Scott and they're surrounded by these like angelic creatures, and it's very bizarre and I quite love it as someone who just I do not like a lot of dream sequences. So, yeah, I strongly recommend Extrasys 3. Thumbs up Thumbs up.
Speaker 2:We're just gonna do this for the rest of the day.
Speaker 5:Thumbs up, it's your lord. I'm outta here.
Speaker 2:Well, let's say it is my turn. I'll do my movie review, and this is one where I think this is an example of contrary to everything I said at the beginning of the episode where this is a movie that I went and watched and I had great spiritual insight from it. That's something that I've ended up being very. I learned something about myself in it. So, like I said, I don't normally go to horror movies. My wife and I had a lot of extra time on our hands way across town and so we couldn't really go back home. So I said, well, let's stop in and watch a movie, and about the only thing that was being offered this time of the day was I am a legend.
Speaker 2:So we go and we sit down not knowing anything about it, and Will Smith is there as Dr Robert Neville, who kind of helped create this massive disease that has essentially killed the entire human race Not quite, but essentially killed the entire human race. And I said killed. They haven't been killed, they have been transformed and you jump in with my language here every time I get it wrong but these people have been infected and they've turned into like these, vampire, like mutants. I actually think of them as zombies, although they didn't die and come back, but there's a kind of zombie like characteristic to them that they're kind of cannibalistic. Their vampires are called dark seekers because they can't, and there's religious imagery right there. Right, they're dark seekers, they can't be in the light, they have to stay in the dark, and the religious themes are quite evident early on. There's posters everywhere that says God still loves you, and there's a butterfly theme right, the symbol of regeneration, rebirth, and so on. Mothman, that would not be this show.
Speaker 2:But while I'm watching this and I don't think the religious imagery had really come out in a full way while I'm watching these vampire, zombie like creatures, it just dawned on me oh, my goodness, these creatures are to humanity, kind of similar to what humanity probably is, to what our intended humanity was from a Christian perspective, before original sin. Right that these creatures were not fully human in the sense of what we think of as humanity. Right that their communication skills were poor, their emotional responses they're very aggressive, that their humanity had been tainted and distorted in ways that they were difficult to recognize as being human. And then so I just had this insight wow, I wonder if that's how God sees us. Right that because of our sin we are not the full reflection of God. We are not the full image of God that we are created. We still are that image, but it's a very tainted image, and so I had that insight and it just made me think of my human condition in a particular way and I was really enjoying it.
Speaker 2:But then the movie just really hits you over the head with Christian imagery, will Smith. It becomes a very clear Christ figure and he is trying to save the human race with his science and then all of a sudden he comes up with the solution and he cries out the cure is in the blood, right, just as the power of the blood of Jesus Christ. That is the salvation. And so ultimately Will Smith sacrifices his life in order to provide the blood. It's not his own blood, but he's to provide the blood for the curing of the zombies. And you don't see that cure happening. But you do get this very hopeful ending which, from what I hear from you all, is a very bad ending compared to the original book. But first I'm giving myself, before you get, to trash the movie that I found so inspiring, but it really did give me spiritual insight into who we are as humans in a way that I really appreciated, do you think?
Speaker 1:the filmmakers were attempting to promote a particular Christian view, or were they just drawing on what they thought would be evocative with their audience?
Speaker 2:That's a great question and I am curious, especially since so many people panned the ending, which was where the overt Christian imagery of the cure is in the blood and the sacrifice. You know Will Smith, robert Neville, is clearly a hero and supposedly I guess I gather that the book he's not so much the hero. Well, it's a shift in focus.
Speaker 5:It's been a while since I've read it.
Speaker 3:Do you want to? Well, I mean just, I mean, we're spoiling everything. We put that out there. But you know, so it's vampires, straight up, that he's killing, and they've they, I believe they've killed his family or his family's died, and that is vampire apocalypse. And so he's trying to kill all as many vampires as he can, and eventually the vampires catch him and at the end he has this moment where he realizes, oh my God, to them I'm a serial killer, like I've been going around butchering their friends and their families and I am the monster, I am legend, which is where the vampire families.
Speaker 1:Is that right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's where the book ends. Yeah, it's on that note.
Speaker 5:Yeah, because even in the movie they're trying to get that vampire back right. He's taken one of them hostage and they're trying to get her back.
Speaker 1:I just stuck up on vampire families. How does that work?
Speaker 2:Yes and then. But they look, but he does see the empathy, he does have sympathy for them near the end.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, so to me it felt very Hollywood, to no moral complexity. Just these are bad villains and he's the savior and we're all happy now, yes, right.
Speaker 1:Daniel, I think it sounds great. I haven't seen it, but I want to see it now.
Speaker 3:So Is it cool seeing where Will Smith is? What hunting caribou in Times Square or something? That's a pretty cool scene, yeah.
Speaker 1:Is it because Times Square has moved or is it because the caribou moved?
Speaker 3:It's because there's no one there anymore, so the nature has come, yeah, yeah, that's pretty even maybe, maybe Elk, maybe Elk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, caribou are gonna really. Caribou or reindeer, you're not gonna get south of You're right?
Speaker 3:No, it was probably just deer, I can't see this You're not the boss of the caribou?
Speaker 1:No, listen, I can't see it. If it's caribou, that is right out, there's no way I will see elk. No reindeer, no caribou. I would see moose. There's lots of moose that could live in New York or further south, but caribou, they're really a northern creature, gotcha.
Speaker 3:I don't think it was caribou.
Speaker 1:I regret this part of the conversation.
Speaker 3:Right on point, Obviously this part should have been edited Please please write in to correct me Clint Peters here, of. Dale McConkey at Bear Naked.
Speaker 1:I'm going to see the movie just to see this animal. It's gonna be like a cow or something, you know. If it's a caribou, though, I will come back on the show if you'll let me, and I will just. I'll eat my hat right here.
Speaker 2:There you go, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, I have so many hats I don't know which one to choose. The smallest one, I think.
Speaker 2:Dr Bailey, can you make a transition from our caribou conversation to your movie series?
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm going to make my super brief, not because I'm not prepared Trust me, I have pages of notes here but because I have so many other kinds of questions about the horror genre that I'd like to talk about. Seriously, I don't know what kind of time we have, but I recently saw so much for brief. I recently saw. Well, the preface is not included in the actual exposition. It's totally different, Just keeps going and going.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So the exposition is going to be very short, which is I'll start it now right, I'm recommending a Netflix series is seven, I think, episodes and it's called Midnight Mass and it's you know, ultimately it's a vampire flick and I really don't like the vampire genre at all. Is this one of my? It's not my least favorite, I can't rank my least favorite, but it's not in the top quarter. I don't like vampire movies. But what's so interesting about this is really this is a film series about how all human value relates to the fact that we're mortal and we're going to die, and so there is a kind of priceless value of the life that we have, and if you take away for undead or immortal, then that goes away, and so it trades on all sorts of very obviously explicit biblical themes that the priest is magnificent because he really believes in what he's talking about, but it's really a study of value and death.
Speaker 2:And did you buy into that argument?
Speaker 1:100%. You know, that's sort of like one of my, one of my stock deals that I have here is it is I don't think we have enough hobbies to live forever. Well, yeah, I'm right there. Yeah, I think we need to die.
Speaker 3:I was astounded by Midnight Mass. I thought it was. It's one of my favorite things that I've seen on Netflix, Like I just was so invested yeah.
Speaker 1:And I don't want to. We could talk a lot more about it, but I have other things I'd like to talk about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I missed my moment when you said I think we need to die.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we do. Thank you so much. Oh, my god.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you all for your movie reviews. All right, that was fun. The listeners can't see but we're all bouncing around, that's right, that's right. So that might become the new theme music for the Church. Potluck movie review editions. Michael, you said you had some more questions. What do we need to put down on the table before we wrap up?
Speaker 1:Well, this is. I guess this was about horror and Christianity, right? Isn't this what we were talking about? Wait, this podcast. Yeah, this podcast. I thought so. And yet Kurt was talking about how, even when we label, something comes out of our culture. So is it the case, from what you all know, that you know something akin to horror or monster movies or these kinds of scary enchanted worlds are part of every culture? Does every culture have these kinds of stories of terrifying creatures, agents, you know, spirits?
Speaker 5:I mean as far as I know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I wouldn't speak for every single culture, but certainly many. Yeah, yeah, certainly there's a lot of Japanese horror movies. Oh, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering whether, if there's a common thread in horror stories or what we might describe as horror stories across cultures of something like an enchanted world. You know, you talked about the unstoppable. There's a whole bunch of these different kinds of things of fright in us, but I think specifically the element of what makes something horror is the uncanny right and the idea that there is enchantment that we are trying to control but we struggle with it, which is not part of our ordinary, normal material worlds discourse, and I'm wondering whether other cultures they have, you know, similar types of stories.
Speaker 2:And what counts as horror in different cultures and the resolution to that horror. That would be a great comparative study to see what the themes are and how they differ.
Speaker 5:I know Clint's really looked at Belarus and their horror conventions.
Speaker 3:One movie.
Speaker 1:One movie, that's quite the movie, though.
Speaker 3:Did we talk about this on podcast?
Speaker 1:or was that off, I can't remember.
Speaker 3:Anyway, go see Cummins. Well, okay, if you have a strong stomach, go see Cummins and you're like emotionally stable.
Speaker 2:Go watch Cummins C-201 films I've ever seen. I don't think the name of the movie came out.
Speaker 3:Cummins C, I think it was 1985. I actually think it was a Soviet director. It was. I'm blanking, but it takes place in Belarus. It's a young boy basically seen a slice of life and death during that time.
Speaker 1:You didn't bring a game, but I have a game.
Speaker 2:All right, if it's okay, and are the following I don't have the game show music on because I had to replace it with this.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay. So this is just. Are these I'm going to name some movies Are the horror movies or not? I'd like to hear what people have.
Speaker 2:Oh wait, we got to come up with the name with this Horror or Horror or Horror.
Speaker 1:This is great, that's very good. All right, let's see. We said Jaws, they can't hear you nod, kurt.
Speaker 5:I'm thinking I'm going to say, nohrer, yeah, I don't think it's horror either.
Speaker 3:I'm going to give a thumbs up so all the listeners can say Me too.
Speaker 1:Silence of the lambs Thumbs up. Horror, horror. Okay, king Kong, thumbs up.
Speaker 3:Not more. I'm going to say no, yeah. I'm going to say no Thumbs down, thumbs up, thumbs down.
Speaker 1:Yeah Me too. All right, fatal attraction? Definitely not Nohrer Can.
Speaker 5:I just say I don't like that If the bunny came back and attacked them yes, okay.
Speaker 1:Why are you so confident in this?
Speaker 5:I just no, I don't think it's horror whatsoever. It's never occurred to me that it would ever be horror. And there's a great. There's a great story too. Sorry, I'm about to get off.
Speaker 2:That's a great academic argument. I've never thought about that before and no, it can't be the king.
Speaker 5:So you know that the original. Let's see in the original version she just gets arrested. In the original cut, yeah, and they showed it to audiences and they wanted her to pay, wow, they wanted her dead, wow, and so they reshot the whole ending, yeah.
Speaker 3:Cosmosogyny, yep, jurassic Park Ooh, that's Too cute. I might have to say, yeah, I'm gonna you know what I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna say, yes, I'm gonna throw that in horror Thumbs up.
Speaker 2:For you. Oh, I would say I could see why someone would think of it as horror, but I think it does it. There's a lightness to it that doesn't make it horror For sure. It's like half horror, I'd say nohrer.
Speaker 3:Blue Velvet oh, that's a good one. No, certainly a monster in that film. I'm gonna say no to yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's borderline. Yeah, it's borderline. You know, it certainly is spooky and there's a sense of the uncanny you do not know what's really happening there, for sure that's true. At all. Yeah, and there's this kind of sense of evil that lurks as well.
Speaker 5:It's very atmospheric, like a horror movie, I think, but I don't think there's not the same level of suspense. There's not. Yeah, the stakes don't seem high enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, possibly, yeah, yeah, so I think, in the true spirit of academia, we need to spend the next 45 minutes looking at our answers and trying to decide what the exact parameters and the boundaries are apocalypse now.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no, no, no See, I think. Oh okay, I think Kirch is all about horror film. I mean, even at the very end, that's his thing, the horror right, yup, yup, and he becomes a god at the end and it is this kind of strange and mystical other world that he has created and it's kind of movement down the river into darkness. And I think that Kilgore is just like a Colonel guy who likes war, you know, and he's kind of just your ordinary kind of crazy. But I think that Brando's character represents a kind of horror movie, a monster in a way. That's what I had.
Speaker 5:That's cool, that is very cool, although it is, I think, a lot. Yeah, kilgore, he wrote it. I forget who's the guy who, robert DeVall? No, no, but who wrote the screenplay? Anyway, he talks about Coppola. No, well Coppola was credited. I can't remember the primary writer now, but he discussed the fact that Kilgore was supposed to be like the Cyclops, something that must be, you know, evaded or open.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 5:That was the one down the river.
Speaker 2:We have much more we could say for sure, but I think we need to wrap it up here. I want to thank our audience today for sitting around the table with us. I hope that we have provided you with some food for thought and something to chew on. At least one of those terms was something that Kurt Hersey introduced to the episode his first time out. So yes, you're looking at me like you don't believe that, but you did so. I suspect that after this episode, we'll have a little more conversation. So if you want to listen after the music is over, we're going to have some leftovers, additional thoughts that we share with one another after we wrap up, so feel free to continue listening.
Speaker 3:I just want to say you know, it makes a great addition to any potluck. What does P-soup, P-soup?
Speaker 1:Watch how I do this right here Boom yeah.
Speaker 2:All right now for all of you out there and listening to land. We appreciate your support and as part of that support, please consider subscribing and rating and reviewing. If nothing else for my ego, just go ahead and rate and review it for me Until we gather around the table next time. This has been church potluck. Thanks for listening. See y'all.
Speaker 1:I'm still prefacing, by the way.
Speaker 5:I wasn't listening too closely, so when you gave me a shout out, I really had no idea what was going on. Oh, is that right?
Speaker 2:But now you know what I'm talking about. Yes, yes, I forget whether it was something to chew on or food for thought or both, but you were the one who introduced those I said. I find it hard to believe that I gave you a pun.
Speaker 5:That was.
Speaker 1:So no, no, it has nothing to do with Christianity. But I'm just curious what everyone's most frightening movie is. And you see it has really affected you, either in the moment, like a jump scare right, or afterwards, lingered.
Speaker 2:Feel free to take your headphones off if you want. You can leave them on if you'd like, but for me it was Friday, the 13th, the very first one. I was a little bit underage and, like I said, I've never been a fan of this genre and I went with a bunch of friends and I was. It was because it was happening to normal people, right, yeah, oh, and so I could imagine myself in that situation. I've never seen it, thank you. Yeah, and I was seeing imagery that I had in tropes that I had never seen before, so it was all new to me and I was very shocked.
Speaker 1:Was this all like the slasher film with the kids at the beach? Yeah, very much.
Speaker 2:It's a slasher film and cabins of teenagers and you know, the sexually promiscuous ones are the ones who get killed first. You know it just plays in all the tropes, but none that I would have been so safe. But also I deliver newspapers at six in the morning and so having to get up and drive in the dark, all by my not drive. Ride my bike all by myself in the dark.
Speaker 3:Did you see it in the theater? Yes, how old were you then?
Speaker 1:Oh, clint, this was a revival, that's all.
Speaker 2:I was like 13 when it was first released. No, no, no, that's not.
Speaker 3:my wow, my wow was imagining being in the theater and seeing that for the first time. Yeah, right, yeah. That would have been freaky. I can only at that age.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and as far as I know, I'm probably wrong about this, but it feels like it was one of the first in that genre.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, it was pretty good it was after Halloween.
Speaker 2:Was it after Halloween?
Speaker 3:It was writing in Halloween's coattails, but it actually made more money than Halloween.
Speaker 1:No, it did. Wow, yeah, it did.
Speaker 2:But anyway, that was one that has lingered with me for a very long time. That checks out.
Speaker 5:Mine was Nightmare on Elm Street. It just freaked me out.
Speaker 1:Is that pretty good Graf.
Speaker 5:Yeah, the whole idea of you can't go to sleep and the girl in the body bag in the classroom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it had the dream. It's freaky.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a good dream, by the way. I meant to say that is a really good dream.
Speaker 5:Although I will say like the so far he's two for two on liking dream sequences. Well, and that's also Nightmare on Elm Street's bag.
Speaker 1:Oklahoma though.
Speaker 5:But the most horrifying scene in any movie I can think of is American History X. Oh, I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is what's the noise.
Speaker 3:Oh God, yeah, the curb check. Yeah, it's just a noise. Good Lord, yeah, which is again not horror, but horrifying. Horrific yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how about you?
Speaker 3:For me the worst thing I've ever seen. That just affected me like current I mean. So I mentioned when I saw Jaws for the first time. That definitely affected my life and in some ways this is like my origin story is. I kept coming back to it because I was so curious about why it affected me and I kept coming back and back until I sort of embraced it in some ways but like oh, you talk about this in one of your essays.
Speaker 3:I do, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, was it the Bruce essay, the one that's about Jaws? Yeah, or maybe it was in my book. Oh, uncle Shark, was it Uncle Shark? I think so yes, yeah, thanks. Mike.
Speaker 2:Jaws didn't affect me, even though I was in that right. I also probably saw that in the movie theater the original Jaws 2, I saw in the theater. I saw it deeply seen. We'll talk about H here in a second.
Speaker 5:I saw Jaws 3D in the theater.
Speaker 2:It went in the glasses.
Speaker 3:Oh man, that movie is so fun, but for me Jaws.
Speaker 2:Okay, I can avoid that. I can just stay out of the water and I'm okay with that, but that didn't overly worry me. But it was anything. Whenever normal people, for apparently random reasons, were very selfish, this could happen to me. I get that.
Speaker 3:The thing that has bothered me the most, though, since I was a kid, would have to be Cannibal Holocaust, which is not a movie I recommend. It is a rough, rough watch. Oh my God, dude. It's disgusting when was this made Kurt Dino 70s I have to look it up. I was thinking late mid-70s. It's an Italian movie. There is this Cannibal craze. Cannibal movies are not my bag. I'm just not into. Cannibal films. I can get on vampire films, but Cannibal movies just kind of it's not our potluck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like the reverse of a potluck. It's a very bad potluck, maybe the Eucharist or something.
Speaker 3:Soup, yes, humans flesh no, so famously they kill animals on screen and it's very hard to watch. But I think what's harder to watch is there are several scenes of sexual assault that just go on forever and ever. It's just very disquieting. It's a rough watch. I do not recommend it.
Speaker 2:Would you throw in the ones that you're not the human cannibal stuff? Do you enjoy movies that are gross to the body? I'm thinking.
Speaker 3:I actually do like body horror.
Speaker 2:Or body horror like human centipede type. Okay, not that one.
Speaker 5:I don't know anything about this other than the basic, but I think the thing to me is not as much body horror, because it's so alien.
Speaker 2:You're not actual body horror.
Speaker 1:I remember seeing that and being terrified. I don't remember much. Is that the one in Antarctica? Yeah Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely one of my favorites. It might be my favorite. It's really good. It's clockwork. It's John Carpenter. Yeah, it's good, yeah. I mean one of the things I love about horror.
Speaker 2:Clockwork, everything clockwork. Or is that just a Were you talking about clockwork or oh, no, clockwork it works like a clock. Oh, I thought you were saying another movie, okay.
Speaker 3:It's just like the editing. The pacing's really good when dialogue happens. It's there for the right reasons. Oh, you're messing with me. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:I really thought you were talking about another movie called clockwork and I thought maybe that was clockwork or oh, got it Because I saw that. I want to say I saw it on the TV. That's just whiting as well. Yeah, At a very young In my mind I'm imagining me being way too young to have seen some of the imagery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If you saw it on TV, like it was seven minutes long, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I'm trying to figure out where I saw the imagery, but I remember being very disturbed.
Speaker 3:That's why I don't like Beethoven. I'm just kidding. I've seen that ranked actually, so that's an interesting film that I would not have thought of as horror. But recently I was looking at some ranking and they put clockwork while I was there.
Speaker 1:I was thinking about putting that on my little list. Yeah, so I'd have to think about that.
Speaker 3:Is that one horror? Yeah Well, I didn't get into some of the other reasons I love horror, but the thing actually makes me think of it as how horror can give voice to certain things. So in the 80s there was a lot of body horror. And what else did we have in the 80s? We had the AIDS epidemic, right, and so a lot of movies, a lot of body horror was reflecting that back onto a culture, especially American culture, that was for a long time trying to ignore it. I mean our president, ronald Reagan. When did he finally like 1987? It was pretty late into the AIDS epidemic before he even acknowledged that it was happening.
Speaker 5:The vampire movie, the Hunger, the hunger. You don't like vampire movies. There's a fast. I love to look at changes in vampire movies because of what it says about. So you like Nasferatu?
Speaker 2:it was about disease in Europe post-World War I and trench warfare. We really never got into the vampire movie definitely. That's why we need to do a whole episode and then in the 80s, you've got the Hunger, which is where it's sex is part of.
Speaker 3:You become a vampire and you've got AIDS going on and David Bowie.
Speaker 2:Well, kurt, I know you need to go.
Speaker 5:Thank you, good to see you man, I do that was fun Great to see you all.
Speaker 2:Good to see you too. I shouldn't say this on an official part of the podcast here, but we need more movie review stuff. Got to tap into your cultural knowledge there. So start religiously themed movies or movies that let me know let's do some movie reviews Sounds good, especially when something comes out that's right there for us.
Speaker 3:Cool, all right, cool, bye, see you, man, that's fun.
Speaker 2:Now the conversation is going to get yeah, that's it, we're done. This might not be a podcast.
Speaker 3:I had another idea that just popped in my head have you done an Oppenheimer?
Speaker 2:Oppenheimer, no, so, yeah, you know what? Sorry, what the times when we have done relevant things that are like in pop culture at the moment, people have seemed to like those, and so I would love to do those. And Oppenheimer was one I so wanted to do, but between vacation and some other things I wasn't able to pull it together.
Speaker 3:If you would, I'd love to pop on. I'd like to talk. Yeah, and Michael, I could just talk. And obviously Todd, I think would need to come back.
Speaker 1:No, let's not have Todd. Okay, why would we want Todd? Why?
Speaker 3:Todd.
Speaker 2:Let's think about Todd.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm going to say thumbs up. I like Todd.
Speaker 1:Yeah, todd's up, it's going to be like Trader and just Kat Half up, half, I don't know.
Speaker 2:People might not know your relationship with Todd, but oh yeah. Todd is that you're being insincere here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Todd is a good one. I love Todd. I love Todd in ways that the people in the podcast will never know. Oh my God, yeah, I do. Don't look at me that way.
Speaker 2:No, I'm just saying, given that you traveled with him for several days, I'm sure there's all kinds of things that we don't know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's a good guy. Yeah, he's a fundamentalist. He never pushed my preface along, is what he noticed. He was infinitely patient with me. That's awesome, you know. Which is to say he made it to about day four, yeah.
Speaker 3:Wait, was this when you?
Speaker 1:guys went down to the Everglades. That's another buddy of mine. That's right, that was. We went to Kansas. City yeah, joe Cook, yeah, joe Cook, yeah. So this is he and I went to Kansas City because he wanted to see some soccer.
Speaker 3:Oh cool, I'm about to go to Kansas City next year for the conference. Yeah, awp Kansas City. Woohoo, gonna take some students along Nice, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's important. Nassaratu, that's a I saw. That's a good one. Man I saw parts of, I didn't know, for I saw parts of Nassaratu, probably around age four or five. Oh wow, I do not understand how this worked out, but my sister was attending. She's a couple of years older than me but she used to re-grade. I'm not gonna go into why she's re-grades only two years ahead of me. Yeah, we're not gonna talk about that. But she had some sort of activity in the summer at the school that she was going into probably first grade with, and it was kind of a movie day so people could bring in, like parents could bring their kids and watch a movie, and the movie they showed at this for like kindergarteners, the first grade Nassaratu Wow, I do not Someone, just probably Wow. So it was the 70s were different. Yeah, I mean they really Seriously 70s.
Speaker 2:We didn't quite get a lot of things figured out that time. Yeah, I'm not familiar with this movie.
Speaker 1:It was like a 1910s German movie yeah, german 6th. German expression, german expression oh, for real, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the original vampire movies, absolutely. There's images from it that I bet you have seen.
Speaker 3:Oh. I bet you know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Like the sunlight, like that was invented by I didn't know so, but there was one scene in there that is actually Nassaratu rising out of his coffin and I just scrammed. I mean, I literally. It was one of the few times this happened many times since. No, it's actually one of the few times where my body just made a decision that my mind had nothing to do with. I was out the door and I wasn't a matter of saying I got to go. Now, this is too scary. This is like my body. It was fight or flight at its instinctive level.
Speaker 1:But there's a scene that You're talking about, scenes that affected you. There's just a scene there where I think the guy's name is like Jonathan Hutter or some Thomas Hutter, I don't remember. He's a doctor or something. He's visiting Nassaratu in his Romanian castle or whatever, but it's at night and he must hear something. And so he just cracks open his door, which is very creepy and it's very narrow and it's sort of shaped like an upside down V, and he looks out the and at the bottom of the stairs there's Nassaratu just with his arms on the side of his body, like he doesn't know how to use his arms right, and with his long, long nails and fingernails, and he's just standing looking up and it's frightening. And then he just sort of slowly almost glides up the stairs.
Speaker 1:And then there's this one scene where he's just in the doorway, so it's perfectly framed, and he fills the doorway because he's very skinny and tall, and it's just this horrible, monstrous image. And then what the guy does is he hides under his sheets, and to me that is like the essence of horror, where there is no real escaping. So you just try to block it out with your mind. And you were what grade I was, like four or six or something. It explains perhaps a fair bit right how I've used.
Speaker 2:It's fascinating that I got through any teacher or whatever.
Speaker 1:I don't know how. I really have no idea. It was just a different era. In any event, that was a terrifying moment and I can't even tell you much about the book, but that scene it's on YouTube. It's incredible.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's in the public comments now, so you can get Nassaratu Well.
Speaker 2:I think I'm going to go ahead and turn this part off now.