Church Potluck: A Smorgasbord of Christian Curiosity
Church Potluck serves up thoughtful, friendly, informal conversation at the intersection of Christianity and contemporary culture. Just like a church potluck, we offer variety: a variety of topics, a variety of academic disciplines, and a variety of Christian traditions. Guests are friends and colleagues who are also experts in the fields of sociology, political science, theology, philosophy, divinity, and more.
Church Potluck: A Smorgasbord of Christian Curiosity
An American Pope: Early Reactions to Leo XIV
In this special Church Potluck episode, host Dale McConkey welcomes a lively panel of guests—including longtime podcast contributor Dr. Michael Papazian, first-time guest and Catholic partisan Rita Lawler, and a bonus interview with Catholic theologian-in-training Brett Adams—to reflect on the historic election of the new pope: Pope Leo XIV, formerly Cardinal Robert Prevost.
The conversation covers a wide range of theological, cultural, and political implications of having the first American (and dual Peruvian citizen) pope, affectionately once known as “Father Bob.” Guests explore Pope Leo’s unexpected rise, his reputation for humility and spiritual depth, his connections to Villanova University and Chicago's South Side, and the careful symbolic choices he's already made—like partially embracing traditional papal vestments and choosing the name “Leo.”
Themes of continuity and change run throughout the discussion. Panelists celebrate the deliberate, bridge-building, and Christ-centered tone Pope Leo seems to be striking—potentially extending the spirit of Francis while introducing a more structured and precise leadership style. There’s thoughtful engagement on topics like synodality, Catholic moral leadership, institutional reform, and the balancing act between tradition and adaptation in today’s church.
And of course—this wouldn’t be Church Potluck without a game show! “Papal Preferences” tests our guests’ knowledge of Pope Leo’s favorite sports teams, culinary leanings, and fashion choices. (Spoiler alert: He’s a White Sox fan, not a Cubs fan!)
BONUS INTERVIEW: Catholic convert and attorney Brett Adams joins the show to share his excitement and analysis, offering sharp theological reflections on Pope Leo’s first homily and what his papacy may signal for Catholics around the globe.
Don't miss our two other pope-related episodes:
- “Conclave Confidential: How the Pope is Chosen”
- “Pope Francis: The Legacy of a Reformer”
☕ Church Potluck is where Christian curiosity comes to the table. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us—and share it with a friend. Thanks for listening, and as always: something to chew on, and food for thought.
The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.
And away we go. This has been a terrible week. I mean a great week in many ways, but I've been so busy with other things Like podcasts, Like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the week started on Monday with that. I just keep pulling you away from all your responsibilities At the time we didn't have a pope, and now we do.
Speaker 2:And here I'm back with another podcast. And then yesterday I gave two separate Zoom lectures at two different venues, both theological, so this has been Theology Week. Wow, different venues, both theological, so this has been Theology Week. I've decided to go just complete theology now, because nobody cares about my philosophy, but apparently there's a following in theology, I've shifted my area. I'm coming out now for the first time on this podcast.
Speaker 1:You go to where the winds blow right, Call me a theologian, from now on All right, all right, and we got a guest here.
Speaker 1:We'll go ahead. Actually, let's go ahead, and just to start off with the introductions, let me start off by saying welcome everyone to Church Potluck, where we are serving up a smorgasbord of Christian curiosity. I'm your host, dale McConkie, sociology professor or should I say halftime sociology professor, and, for a couple more weeks, united Methodist pastor, and you know there are two keys to a good church potluck Plenty of variety and engaging conversation, and this is exactly what we are trying to do here on Church Potluck Sitting down with friends and sharing our ideas on a variety of topics from a variety of academic disciplines and a variety of Christian traditions. Not too much variety this week, though, it's all been one core topic, but let's welcome our guest. We're going to keep our other guest a mystery and a surprise guest over here, because we've already been talking about, we have, as you've already heard, one of our most regular guests. We have philosopher Michael Papazian.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Thank you, it's good to be back. It's been so long. It's been a while. Michael Papazian, that's right, thank you, it's good to be back. It's good to be back. It's been so long. It's been a while, that's good.
Speaker 2:We don't do a podcast for the entire semester, basically, and then all of a sudden we just this is the week, right, that's what it is. I think. Isn't that how a lot of podcasts are?
Speaker 1:Like they do all the recording shows. I guess I'll have to think about that in the future, but that's what happens when you go down to halftime All of a sudden you have all this time that you can do. But I'm very excited to welcome our other guest, who thus far has been very quiet. But I want to welcome for the first time to the podcast Rita Lawler. Yay, Rita, tell us something about yourselves and then about yourself, Okay.
Speaker 3:I don't know why I made you plural.
Speaker 2:There You're different personalities. You can talk about each one, I think there are at least three of me Of your many selves right.
Speaker 3:I do have different life stages.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 3:Currently I am an auditor of many courses at Berry College, all in the religion and philosophy department.
Speaker 1:Yes, you are around Evans Hall more than some professors are.
Speaker 3:Possibly, but to my delight.
Speaker 1:That's excellent.
Speaker 3:Also, this is May and it's eight years since the death of my husband, Peter Lawler, so if you wanted a Catholic commentary today, his would probably be much, much better than mine.
Speaker 1:Kind of appropriate. We've got an empty seat right there to think about In fact, I've got that in my notes later on to reflect on what Peter might think about all this and you are actually a longtime employee at Mercy Senior Care right.
Speaker 3:I was a director of Mercy Care from. So more than an employee director over the entire thing For about 22 years.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:But I've been retired for 10 years, Dale.
Speaker 1:Is that something?
Speaker 3:It is something and it's a good place to be. Good, because it gives me the luxury of being here.
Speaker 1:Excellent, and that's a good point. So thank you so much, rita. We're glad to have you here. We have another guest, brett Adams, who is supposed to join our panel today remotely, but I had some technical difficulties and so we're going to talk to Brett a little bit later and then edit him into the podcast at the end. But we are very grateful for Brett to be on the podcast, so let's give him a round of applause now for that and let's go ahead and move on. We already gave a hint of what we're talking about today, and I don't know if anyone else is going to enjoy this, and our notes are very scattered today or my notes are very scattered today, in part because it's such short notice, but also because I spent all my time doing this. Oh yeah, all right, think it is Leo. He was an American Pope, is that alright, it's fine.
Speaker 2:How long did it take you to do that, leo?
Speaker 1:I'm not getting any reaction here. Now I'm feeling a little sheepish about this. It's fine, alright. Yes, we have a new Pope, an American Pope, leo XIV, formerly Cardinal Robert Prevost. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right Formerly, just Father Bob is what he was called. What does this mean for America and what does it mean for American Christianity and American Catholicism, and what does it mean for Catholicism as a whole and for Christianity in general and just for the whole global dynamics of the world? We can get as broad as we want, but just what are the implications of all of this? And we have our guests, as we've already introduced, to come and talk about this. And, Rita, you mentioned your relationship, your long time. How long were you married to Peter?
Speaker 1:38 years 38 years, how about that? But you also now have been a practicing Catholic for a very long time, and so just to open it up.
Speaker 3:I'll start with that. Actually, I haven't been a practicing Catholic for a very long time.
Speaker 3:Oh, sorry about that, I've been on the edges of Catholicism since I was about 18 years old and that was through reading and through education and through friendships and proximity to my husband. Employment with the Sisters of Mercy Always been really close, but it was really the advent of Pope Francis that helped me cross the line. Is that right? I attended St Mary's since 1979, but I couldn't really feel compelled to come in and go through all that took until we had the voice of Pope Francis.
Speaker 1:How about that. That's great, so feel free to. We reflected on Pope Francis in the last episode, but if there's ever anything you want to say about that, feel free. So you define yourself much as Michael has in terms of being Catholic adjacent for much of your life.
Speaker 3:I was. It penetrated my life, but I just couldn't quite get over some of the barriers. And Pope Francis was the voice that softened all that for me and compelled me.
Speaker 1:And with the announcement of Pope Leo, what are your first impressions in terms of the continuation of Francis's tradition, or do you see some discontinuity? Or what are your initial impressions?
Speaker 3:My initial impression is great relief, because there were some other possibilities that might have been a radical break from some of his initiatives that were the dearest to me. And another feeling is just a great hope, oh great.
Speaker 1:I like that. I like that very much.
Speaker 3:I think he will continue many of Francis's innovations and much of his style, but I think he will be much more deliberate in the way he speaks, and evidence of that is he took one hour to write his speech and I listened to it and you could hear themes, word content all the way peace, synodality, francis walking together, unity all those themes that are so important.
Speaker 1:In the commentary I've heard already. I've heard the word deliberate mentioned very often very intentional about his words and his actions. Very much so, michael. How about you? What are your initial?
Speaker 2:reactions. I know I was very surprised that an American would become a pope. I said that in a previous—.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to do that. After your impressions, let's go ahead and do that now. Okay, any thought whatsoever that there was going to be an American pope To be?
Speaker 2:honest. No, I mean, I saw his name previously as a list of possibilities, but I had kind of written him off because of that. And so the thing now considering it, I think that one reason why maybe he was, or is, the most plausible American candidate is because he's also Peruvian too. So there's a sense in which he's both a North American and a South American, and I think there are other reasons why-.
Speaker 1:And some people have emphasized that he is an American Pope, but not just a US Pope. Yes, very much an American Pope, and he does have Peruvian citizenship now as well.
Speaker 2:He is, yeah, and he has, I think, for has it been nine, so it's been a while nine years or something he's at 15. Yeah that he's been a dual citizen. He's the first I just read. He's the first dual citizen Pope. Oh, really Interesting.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So what were your initial impressions? Oh, before we get onto your initial impressions, I actually look up the odds. For some reason, I've been intrigued by the odds making but his odds were 2%, so 50 to 1.
Speaker 1:Someone made a lot of money If you bet on the American Pope, and so I find it very interesting and again I would love to have a documentary conclave now to see the dynamics if this person was going in truly at that level, for the decision to be made fairly quickly. You would think that if someone who was under the radar was going to be elected pope, that it would have been a longer process to get there, but the decision was made just about the same length of time as it took to elect Francis and Benedict before him.
Speaker 3:I think they knew what they wanted and I think it truly was a case of come Holy Spirit. I mean, this was a spiritual process, a discernment, and I think they were looking for a unifier, and I think he will be that.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great point and I was listening to something on CNN which was normally a political commentary and it was actually a very good conversation, because someone early on mentioned sometimes we don't want to always put this through a political lens, right, Much like Conclave does, right, the movie Conclave very much puts it through a lens. But when you mentioned the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is supposed to be guiding the process and it was very interesting to listen to all of these commentators all over the political spectrum kind of agreeing that yes, we can't always put religious activities through political prisms, which happens too often in our modern commentary. So I'm really glad that you already brought the Holy Spirit into this.
Speaker 3:I think it was there and I think he has always felt called by the Holy Spirit and I think he is a very holy man. So that was one of my primary impressions of him just looking at him, his warmth, his smile. And then, as we began to hear more about his life, you heard from his neighbors that he and from his brother, that he wanted to be a priest since the time he was six, and he did serve mass, pretend on the ironing board as the altar. Now, these are things you could only hear from a family member or somebody that shared your first grade. He knew, he always knew, he was called.
Speaker 3:So there are people that are and we do need to listen to them and that has happened. Miraculously, that has happened.
Speaker 1:That's great, great, thank you. At the same time, you hear all this emphasis on how he's a holy person I want to come back to that but you also hear some just very earthy things that make him just like a normal person, and I think the fact that he's from the United States kind of adds to that right. So there's all these things that we're hearing that are just make him seem so normal in every day as well. With that in mind, let's do a game show. All right, this is the easiest game show of all time. I made it nice and easy for our first-timer, rita, okay.
Speaker 3:Now this will be embarrassing if I don't do it.
Speaker 2:You shouldn't say it's easy. I guess I should.
Speaker 1:I will edit it out if it turns out that you all are bad at this, but I'm sure, hearing your conversation before we even got started, I know you're all going to knock this out of the park, literally, because this is called papal preferences. So I'm going to give you two things and you have to tell me which of the two Father Bob, who is now Pope Leo XIV, prefers. Okay, so papal preferences when it comes to baseball does—.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's not baseball.
Speaker 1:Does he prefer the Chicago Cubs or the Chicago White Sox? Being a native of Chicago, you would think it's one of those too. Now, I know, you know.
Speaker 2:I now know. I mean it took a while. We had to really do some digging.
Speaker 1:You actually did a little research on this, didn't you? As did I? Yeah, of course.
Speaker 3:All I know is it was announced one way on television and 20 or 30 minutes later it had to be retracted, and his brother made the correction that is a good enough answer right there.
Speaker 1:You know the context behind it and the answer. So, michael, the answer is so, it's the White Sox. He is a.
Speaker 2:White Sox fan. At first we thought it was the Cubs and apparently the shameless Cubs actually had I don't know if it was, I assume it was real Wrigley Field it said. You know, the Pope is a Cubs fan.
Speaker 1:Up on their big billboard outside their stadium. They announced unless it was fake, but I think this was actual that they put up a sign. He's a Cubs fan and, like you said, rita, that his brother corrected nope, he's never, ever been a Cubs fan. He's always been a White Sox fan. All right, along the same line when it? Does Pope Leo XIV prefer the St John's Red Storm or the Villanova Wildcats?
Speaker 3:I would say the Villanova, yeah, it's got to be Villanova. Not that I've heard of either team before.
Speaker 1:Oh, you know, I do not know this for a fact, but how could it not be the Villanova Wildcats, given that's where he attended? He went to Villanova, yeah, and he majored in mathematics, apparently, and philosophy and majored in mathematics, apparently.
Speaker 2:And philosophy, and philosophy too, oh, that's the perfect combination, I think, yeah, really, we've had quite a few students here who Do you need a napkin?
Speaker 1:You're drooling. Oh yes, philosophy and mathematics, put them together. Yeah, it's the perfect combo. He's not really drooling, that was a joke.
Speaker 2:Humanities and science, and they share a lot of commonalities going back to Pythagoras. Yeah, so he chose well in terms of his majors, and I mean I have some connections with Villanova, I'm very happy you do too, actually.
Speaker 1:I was going to say I heard you bragging about your Villanova connections. We were playing six degrees of Pope Leo XIV before, which I imagine many Americans will be doing now.
Speaker 2:Right, I just have a lot of friends at Villanova. I've gone to the Patristics Medieval Renaissance Conference in the last three, four. I forgot how many years I go in October for this wonderful conference. They have up there of really nice people. It's an Augustinian university and of course Pope Leo is an Augustinian I think the first member of the Augustinian.
Speaker 1:Order. So we had our first Jesuit with Pope Francis and now our first Augustinian with Pope Leo, and you have all those credentials with Villanova. But did you have a daughter who attended Villanova? See, that's why I said I knew you had a connection too.
Speaker 2:And so yeah, we both—.
Speaker 1:Oh Rita, you're looking like you did not know that.
Speaker 1:I didn't know the sports teams and I don't know didn't know the sports teams and I don't know what was her degree. Kristen went to Villanova for a year and she was studying both psychology and education, but that was also, unfortunately, the year where Ingrid's cancer came back is terminal basically and so Kristen came back and finished her education at UGA, had a great experience there as well, but she enjoyed it. It ended up only being one year, but she called it her Northern adventure. She enjoyed her experience. That's a whole other conversation that it was a different culture, but it wasn't that based really on the religion, just sort of there was a bit of a social class difference up there for her. So anyway, she had a very good time up there, so anyway. So you were right about that, all right. So when it comes to cooking, does Popolio prefer cooking Italian pizza or Peruvian stir-fry?
Speaker 3:I heard Italian pizza.
Speaker 1:There you go, you got it. You got it. Supposedly he was very well known for, since he studied some in Italy, he picked up pizza cooking there. Yeah, I didn't know that, you didn't know that one. No, so really got it for you. No, so really got it for you. And then so the final question here, when it comes to vestments, when it comes to the regalia that is worn by the Pope, is he choosing the simple white robe, like Pope Francis did, or is he opting for the complete papal vestments with the red mazetic and cape and all the fanciness?
Speaker 2:See, I know he wore that the fancier one.
Speaker 3:He wore the Mufata, but I don't think he wore the whole thing, so he sort of did the middle.
Speaker 1:Half way. Okay, so he went. So he was Methodist. He kind of did a little. I did it, but not all the way he was trying to.
Speaker 2:It was a gesture to both sides.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he did not wear the papal hat. I noticed he just had a simple.
Speaker 3:He wore the cape and I think that's all. I didn't look down at the shoes.
Speaker 1:Okay, so my question. There was a little bit misleading, so he went the middle way. Which Anglicans?
Speaker 3:would appreciate. He made a gesture which I think was deliberate.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's a really good point. Go ahead and elaborate on that, Rita, the deliberateness of that, Because that's one of the things I want to talk about. Some of the early symbols, early gestures that he's done. What are we to make of them? Is he sending messages? And so what do you think the message is of wearing some of the vestments, but not all?
Speaker 3:I think he wanted to make a gesture of welcome to people who had missed some of the pomp, so he put on some and he didn't make the really charming welcome that Pope Francis did. It was more reserved. It was I'll use the word again deliberate, where he chose his words very carefully and used words that echoed the Augustinian rule like walking together, one heart, one mind, together, unity, pathway to God. Those things, they were very deliberate.
Speaker 1:So he reached back to tradition in some ways, but he also made it clear that there was some continuity in some of the reform-mindedness that Pope Francis was having.
Speaker 3:I mean, those are the foundations of his order, but they are themes of Francis's papacy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great, but they are themes of Francis's papacy. Yeah, great, michael, we never really gave you the real chance to say what your impressions were. What do you think is going on here?
Speaker 2:It might be too early to tell I mean, you never know but my first impressions are extremely favorable and I think it was the right choice. I think the spirit was involved, as always.
Speaker 1:Here's my biggest takeaway so far in terms of everyone being so surprised that it's an American pope, and some people are politicizing this. Oh, they've put an American pope to be a counter to Donald Trump, and he's already. When he was a cardinal, he did post some things on Twitter that were directly in opposition to things that the president or vice president had said, and so there was some oh, you know, I've heard people on the far left and the far right trying to politicize this, but I don't think that's what's going on. I don't know what you all feel. I don't think there was that. I think that they really did see him as a unifier, as you've mentioned, rita, that I think that they really did see him as a unifier, as you've mentioned, rita, and he is the perfect example, I think, to be an American pope.
Speaker 1:And so here's my big takeaway is that people were always worried if you had an American pope. You know, a pope coming from a superpower where there's already all this power and influence, but he's the perfect epitome of what you're supposed to do with your power. Right that he spent 20 years in Peru, that gaining power to being in a powerful position was not his major goal and aspiration, and so the fact that he was very missionary-minded and was willing to live in much more humble circumstances. That is a major message for those of us who live with privilege and live in powerful places that there are. This is a way to emulate and a way to serve. Does that?
Speaker 3:make any sense to you all, Articulate it very well, but yeah no I think that's right. There will be political ramifications, of course, but I think he was chosen not because he was an American, but because he was a globalist. You know, he had experience in both hemispheres and in Europe.
Speaker 2:He had heritage from France, from Italy from Spain too, and apparently he has Haitian.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I heard Creoles too.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:And so he brings all those things together life experience, education, service, and so some here where he was a high school teacher, very humble work for a long time. And then in Peru, long time he was recognized for his talent. So he was the head of his order, which is not something that's offered to many, especially at the young age that he was, because he's still young. In fact, startlingly, he's younger than me and that's sort of a sign of advancing the first time that's happened. That is the first time that's ever happened to me.
Speaker 1:Is there any other position in the entire world where 69, you say, and he's young, yeah, that's right, that's it, it's the Pope. You say, and he's young.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. That's it. It's the Pope.
Speaker 1:I think the Pope is. I think yeah.
Speaker 3:One other reason I'm glad to see him is I always thought of Pope Francis as the one remaining moral voice in the world, and when he died I thought who will take that place? And I'm not saying they're not other moral men, women, teachers, but he had a recognized moral voice. That's what I should have said. So I think the world longs for that.
Speaker 1:And, like you said, I think he'll be very deliberate in how he uses that, and I think we also need people who are very deliberate in how they enter into the global conversation of ethics.
Speaker 3:It's incendiary times. Yes, and I think they were cognizant that it's incendiary times. Yes, and I think they were cognizant that it was an incendiary time and that's why they wanted a globalist and a deliberate man.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I found it refreshing that President Trump, who very often, if anyone has spoken ill of him, will very often speak ill of them right back right and very often exacerbate of them right back right and very often exacerbate whatever the tension is. And, as I mentioned, this Pope has said some things, maybe not directly about Trump, but certainly Trump's policies, and Trump was very gracious in his comments and said it was good, it was great to have an American so far, exactly, but it was a feel-good day all around. As far as I could tell, with one exception CNN did talk about, there are people who are concerned about just the whole American conflict of the sexual abuse and so questioning whether Cardinal Prevost was that's what I'm looking for deliberate enough in that and taking and addressing those issues.
Speaker 3:I've read that, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm curious to see if, in the days when the feel-good moment dies down, if people will be concerned. He seems to be very much on the side of working people, very much on the side of immigrants and migrants. Taking the name Pope Leo was very intentional for that. Pope Leo XIII was a pope during the early stages of the Industrial Revolution and so much immigration was going on and so many people were moving from rural to urban areas and Pope Leo said the Catholic Church, one of their responsibilities is to make sure that these people's rights are protected and their dignity is upheld. And so I would say that this pope is very intentional for picking Leo. And so there's that. But he seems to be very traditional when it comes to most of the issues around sex and gender, and so I wonder if people will push him on that in any way. But just as Pope Francis ultimately was and there was no major changes but when it comes to same-sex marriage, ordination of priests, just all the issues around sex and gender, he seems to be quite traditional on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would agree. So I'm not. Again, we don't know, but I'm not expecting any major changes. I mean, these are issues that popes have spoken about, like, for example, the ordination of women. It's just ruled out.
Speaker 1:Even as deacons Deacon issue.
Speaker 2:yeah, It'll be interesting to see if that comes back.
Speaker 3:The deacon issue, I think is still alive. It was alive when Francis died. It was a key issue at the Synod. It was not furthered along at that point. But at least it won't be like Pope Benedict, where there was an active war on women, religious and women theologians.
Speaker 3:And the first thing after Pope Francis was elected is he invited the leadership of religious Catholic women to his office and said what can I do? And then he said the war is over. The war is over Because there have been literally Inquisition-type things of people like Sister Elizabeth Johnson.
Speaker 1:So the policies did not change, but the tone and the conversation changed significantly.
Speaker 3:I think some policies did change. There was openness, there were appointments, there were the two different commissions, one in, I think, 2016 and another in 2020 on the ordination of women Dickens. So the history is there. What isn't there is the consensus to move forward on it just yet. So I think they're looking for avenues for that. I think that will go on and the other, I think, will be continuing conversation Father James Martin, who's been, you know, the key advocate.
Speaker 3:Father James Martin, who's been, you know the key advocate actually spent his synod table time with Pope Leo, then Cardinal, and I think that is a conversation that will continue and he will continue to have a good ear on that.
Speaker 2:So I think it'll be a matter of nuance, at least for a while. Yeah, you mentioned synod, and synodality is something that the new pope came out as continuing what Francis's vision for a church that was open to dialogue and not just top-down.
Speaker 1:And elaborate for our audience what you mean by synod.
Speaker 2:Oh, synod is a word just meaning. It literally means in Greek you want the etymology the roads coming together.
Speaker 3:Right, it's not really. Oh, you want the real citation, liddell Scott Jones, of the Greek language, the etymology, the roads coming together.
Speaker 2:Citation that's giving me a headache. Oh, you want the real citation Liddell Scott Jones of the Greek language page. Whatever, yeah, okay, anyway, chicago. Style.
Speaker 1:That's giving me a headache, but you should love that word. You can learn that one.
Speaker 3:Oh no, it's a great word, I mean the. Greek part we come together, we talk, we have a meeting.
Speaker 2:It's a great word Synod is essentially— I mean the Greek part we come together, we talk, we have a meeting. It's not just me, the pope, telling you what to do. I listen to the bishops, you know, listen to the laity. It's sort of a more democratic, open process and that Francis was very firmly in support of that vision of church governance and leadership and Pope Leo has expressed that he is in agreement with his predecessor on that.
Speaker 1:And there was much greater participation by women in Pope Francis' synod than past synods as well. Am I right about?
Speaker 3:that Well, there hadn't been a past synod, for I mean, there've been councils, but this was a synod.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gotcha Great. What haven't we talked about that we need to talk about? I don't know what haven't we talked about that we need to talk about. I don't know what else is there?
Speaker 3:It was very disconcerting to me that right-wing organizations that were well-funded went to Rome and were actually lobbying in a political style.
Speaker 1:Is that right?
Speaker 3:The cardinals, and there were massive parties in gardens and people were invited. They made a big dossier and printed into a book giving positions of all the candidates, of course leaning toward the ones that would have been distressing to me.
Speaker 1:It didn't seem to work.
Speaker 3:It didn't work, and so that's another reason I'm saying I think the Holy Spirit was at work and the money did not matter. But the money is still going to be there and they're already talking.
Speaker 1:So you think we will see some very vocal opposition to this path of semen? Oh, it's already started. Okay, yeah, it's already started.
Speaker 2:The money issue is a big matter because the Vatican does have a debt right.
Speaker 3:I mean they're looking for funds.
Speaker 2:So there is always that danger that you know money talks and that can influence people.
Speaker 3:It has influenced Catholic universities, it's influenced Catholic think tanks. I mean there's a whole network of not just right-leaning but extremely right-leaning things that are incredibly well-funded.
Speaker 1:Maybe a topic for another podcast on another day, it sounds like, but it is.
Speaker 2:some of the commentators have noted that he does that Pope Leo does have does seem to have really good organization business skills.
Speaker 1:I've heard that as well.
Speaker 2:And that he may be able to, you know, be a stricter administrator than some of the more recent popes, and so maybe he can get the financial house in order and, you know, make things work a little bit more efficiently. You know, he's an American, after all. He has that can-do attitude, there you go.
Speaker 1:Well, let's close with this and, rita, we should start with you, because I think it's possible that you knew Peter better than us. What do you think Peter would be thinking now with an American pope, and this American Pope in particular?
Speaker 3:People always ask me the question what would Peter think? And I never really know exactly what he would think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not really fair.
Speaker 3:Because it would always be funny and it would always be something I hadn't thought of. So I just can't do anything with that question.
Speaker 1:You know what? I've never heard anyone put it that way, but that's exactly how I felt with Peter. My whole relationship too. Peter was very much a mentor to me and I'd go in there and ask him a question about something and I would never get an answer. That I thought was just straightforward answering my question.
Speaker 3:Well, he would want you to think about it, but he would already be four or five steps past where I could be for different reasons, I won't say all of them. But it would always be funny, so you would be drawn into thinking about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, One thing I was thinking of. I know that Peter had written on Orestes Brownson.
Speaker 1:Let me go ahead and interrupt you very quickly. For those of you who don't know who we're talking about, peter. Interestingly enough, his middle name is Augustine, so Peter Augustine Lawler just a nationally and internationally renowned political philosopher, but very much grounded in Catholic tradition, and so his writings even though rarely did they come out and talk about Catholic doctrines or anything like that, they were always Catholic-informed. Is that a fair representation of his political philosophy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the thing it was understated. But you don't have to— and more—.
Speaker 1:You can be profoundly influenced by Catholicism and not sort of wear it on your sleeve and say— Right, it comes out in ways, in subtle ways, but very meaningful ways, and once you see it— I remember the first time that I—I remember the first time I realized it when I was reading something of his and I said, oh, this is very traditional Catholic doctrine here. And then, once you see it everywhere in his writings again for our audience probably more known in conservative circles philosophically speaking, but still very respected across the spectrum I would say he's still quoted by major columns like David Brooks.
Speaker 2:About a month ago, peter's name appeared in one of the New York Times op-ed articles that Brooks writes yes.
Speaker 1:But I interrupted what you were going to say just to get that context.
Speaker 2:One of Peter's interests was, I guess, the 19th century American Catholic thinker, rusty Brownson, and the reason why that just came up is because Leo XIII was involved in. He had written something against the heresy of Americanism where there was a sense that the American Catholic Church had become too individualistic and perhaps not, you know, sort of breaking away from traditional Catholicism. Brownson was involved in that debate that was going on. I don't know that much about it, but I just thought that now that we have another Pope, leo, was that also a you know? Is that also a message to the American church that he chose Leo? And so I think that perhaps Peter's writings dealing with Brownson and this issue about Americanism might shed some interesting insights, might see a resurgence, perhaps, of incorporating Peter's writings.
Speaker 1:I think so, wow.
Speaker 2:I mean Leo, I was just doing briefly. Leo XIII is really a major figure in modern Catholicism and I'm not saying that just because our Pope is Leo now. That therefore he's you know everything that Leo XIII did. Leo XIV is continuing. But it's just interesting that you have Pope Leo XIII very influenced, very interested in what's happening in the American church, and then of course now I assume Leo XIV as an American has a special interest in what's happening in the American church as well.
Speaker 2:Leo XIII was, as you mentioned earlier, a forceful advocate for labor unions, for workers' rights, for the poor people, so we may see a continuity of that. Leo XIII was also heavily interested in the intellectual life of the church and education. He was involved. He was, I think, the founder of the Pontifical University in America, catholic University of America, and Leo XIII was also instrumental in the revival of Thomism, that is to say the philosophy and thought of St Thomas Aquinas, in modern Catholic thought. So you also wonder, does that have sort of any? Does that signify anything for Leo XIV's intellectual interests as well? That you know. Maybe I'm pushing it too far.
Speaker 3:I think it's on target. I did want to go back to Peter for a minute. His middle name, of course, was Augustine. His dad and his uncle were important Catholic scholars. His uncle was a priest, a theologian, In fact. He was part of the International Pontifical Institute.
Speaker 1:Was his dad a priest? His dad no.
Speaker 3:His dad, no, but his dad, who actually worked for the CIA. He also was a scholar, a translator of the ancient Christian fathers, and he had just finished translating Augustine's sermons when my husband was born, hence the name. So the name goes back to the order.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes very cool, because the other thought that came to mind is he's now Leo XIV, is now the second most famous Augustinian. You know your guy is the first, my guy Not Wesley. Before that, martin Luther was an Augustinian friar Right.
Speaker 3:So I'm not saying that that's funny, I'm just saying that.
Speaker 1:Protestantism came out of the Augustinian order. Not too often do people from the Wesleyan tradition think of Luther as my guy.
Speaker 2:Could there be a?
Speaker 1:Wesley.
Speaker 3:It makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. Oh, and this is important, I think one of the first things that he will choose to do and it will be by the end of this month is go to Turkey for the 17th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea.
Speaker 2:Nicaea, oh yes.
Speaker 3:Once again, we're talking about globalism and unity.
Speaker 2:I know that we talked about in the last podcast about the Patriarch of Constantinople, bartholomew. Assuming that Leo and Bartholomew will meet will jointly commemorate the 1700th anniversary and I know Bartholomew had a very close relationship with Pope Francis and the hope is that relationship will continue now with.
Speaker 1:Leo, too, we will mark that on the calendar. Oh, it's big, I'm serious. We will mark that on the calendar for a Church Potluck episode for sure.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm ready. I've already given it. In March I gave a talk on the 1700th anniversary.
Speaker 1:We're just going to hand the microphone over to Dr Papazian on those days.
Speaker 3:I don't even have to do any research, just ask me. Whatever you want, we'll let it in ahead of time.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right, great. Now, as promised, we have a bonus interview or conversation with Brett Adams, and he was not able to be with us here on the panel, but we still wanted to definitely talk to him, and so here's our conversation with Brett. All right, and it's my pleasure and honor to introduce yet another guest, and that guest would be Brett Adams. Yeah, and Brett is coming to us remotely. And, brett, I'm sorry that I didn't make it possible for you to be part of the actual conversation here and I'm. We had some technical difficulties, and by technical difficulties I mean I didn't know how to use my board correctly.
Speaker 4:No problems, I'm just excited to be on.
Speaker 1:We have you on in part because I know you're a very devout Catholic and want to hear a little bit about that here in a second. But you have just been such an amazing supporter and encourager throughout all this initial proof-of-concept stage of Church Potluck and so just always thankful for your encouragement, and so I said, when the opportunity arises, we need to get him on the podcast, and such a day has arrived.
Speaker 4:Yes, it took the death of a pope and the election, but no, I love the podcast, I love the idea of the podcast. So I mean, from day one, I've listened intently and I'm always willing to help however I can to assist in making it as popular as I can.
Speaker 1:That is so nice of you, and Dr Papese and I were laughing that sometimes I would drop an hour-long podcast and about an hour and 15 minutes later there'd be a little post commenting on it and giving your encouragement, and so that was always very nice of you. But tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us start off with your Barry connection here, because you know many of the people who are on the podcast often.
Speaker 4:Yes, it was. So I grew up about five minutes down the road from Berry College.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that.
Speaker 4:Yep had to drive past it every morning to get to school and grew up, my then-girlfriend went to Berry College. I was like I might as well follow her. We both went to Berry College. In fact, we got married at Frost Chapel and studied religion and philosophy with Dr Papazian.
Speaker 1:And you also had. We talked about Dr Lawler for a little while. You have courses with Dr Lawler as well.
Speaker 4:Oh yes, oh yes. I didn't have a ton of them, but I was able to take two philosophy courses with him.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. And you are now a lawyer, yes, so putting that Barry education to good use. I tried.
Speaker 4:You know I'm a lawyer so it's up for debate about how successful that was. But yeah, I went to Georgia State Law and after that got a job as a prosecutor over in where I live now over in Coweta in Noonan, and continue to use my religion philosophy degree from Barry to good use. I'm in the process of getting my master's in theology with a concentration on dogmatic theology.
Speaker 1:Wonderful, I did not know that. Congratulations.
Speaker 4:Thank you, Thank you, and I continue to teach at my local parish and you know very instilled in me very much the head, heart and hands and I continue to try to practice that philosophy everywhere.
Speaker 1:I go. That is wonderful and it certainly comes over your thoughtfulness and in fact I have this correct on that. You are someone who converted to Catholicism as a young adult. Is that correct?
Speaker 4:Yes, someone who converted to Catholicism as a young adult. Is that correct? Yes, I met my now wife at the Governor's Honors Program when we were both in high school and we started dating, and it was only later that I found out she was Catholic and at the time I thought I need to make sure I save her soul from eternal damnation.
Speaker 4:The problem was that, yeah, I mean it was out of love. But the problem was she wasn't quite sure the reasons behind what she believed. And so I decided I'll go to RCIA, which is the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, which kind of teaches adults what Catholics believe. So I decided I'll go there, find out what they believe, what she believes, so I can convert her and save her. And three years later I convert to the Catholic faith. She's never let me forget that she was right, I was wrong.
Speaker 1:The first of many probably.
Speaker 4:Yes, in fact, I converted my freshman year at Berry College.
Speaker 1:Well, how about that? That sounds like another podcast for another time, and I want to hear more about that for sure. But let's go ahead and turn our attention to the selection of a new pope, and I presume that you are surprised that it is an American pope.
Speaker 4:Very much. I mean, especially after the Cold War. They were seeing this idea that as America became more and more of a global power, america became more and more of a global power. No-transcript the provost was a little bit on some people's radar, but as kind of a dark horse candidate.
Speaker 1:I mentioned earlier that I think that he had about a 2% chance of winning, according to the odds makers at various booking agencies. Tell me whether you think the point I made is accurate. I mentioned that he was attractive as a pope, even though he was from a power, as you mentioned, in part because he didn't use that power. He chose to go to Peru, he chose to live simply. He almost modeled for those of us who live in powerful places ways of using that power for good in humble ways. Do you think that made him a more attractive candidate?
Speaker 4:I think so. I think him coming from a superpower like America and having a Western idea of governance helps in what the cardinals were looking for. But then also that missionary spirit of spending so much of his time as a clergyman in Peru and in Latin America really assisted, and by everything I've heard, very humble person. When the Pope wanted to appoint him to, for example, the Congregation for Bishops, which is the head guy who helps tell the Pope hey, here's someone that you should appoint as a bishop. He first told the Pope I'll do whatever you tell me. If you decide to make this appointment, I'm happy to do it, but ultimately you make a prayerful decision about it. And so the pope actually spent a little bit of time in prayer about it and then decided to appoint him.
Speaker 1:That sounds wonderful. I don't want to label you, but from the little bit I know of your faith, you seem like you are very much a traditionalist. Would that be a good, fair characterization of your faith?
Speaker 4:It's hard when it comes to Catholicism, because what is a traditionalist? I don't attend, for example, mass that tends to do the traditional Latin Mass, the Vitis Ordo. I go to Mass in the vernacular, but I'm orthodox, if that's the way you take it. Vernacular but I'm, you know, I'm Orthodox, if that's the way you take it. You know some of the problem. When people talk about liberal or conservative in Catholicism especially, is what do you mean by that?
Speaker 1:Do you mean?
Speaker 4:liberal, as in? You know the person is for the ordination of women, or do you mean liberal, as in? They push for going out and feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and giving home to the homeless you homeless. I would put myself more in the moderate camp of someone, for example, that I appreciate the various rights in the church, including the older right, and I hope people are able to practice that, but at the same time I myself prefer more of a wider church. How can we bring people in? Not necessarily. How can we restrict people and keep them out?
Speaker 1:Great, and I bring that up just to get a sense of someone from your perspective, now that you've articulated it so nicely. What is your reaction, not to the American part, but just to Pope Leo XIV, just what you know of him?
Speaker 4:When he first came on, he's very much in the mold of Francis and of course this is I mean, pope Francis appointed so many of the current cardinals.
Speaker 4:This was going to be a pope who was in the mold of Francis. I think the question becomes is it Francis 2.0 or is it something like Francis 1.5, right, and when he first came out, I thought that this was going to essentially just continue to be a lockstep with Pope Francis. But a lot of things that he's done in just the last 24 hours have indicated that, while he might be continuing the theological thought of Pope Francis, he's going to have a much different governing style and, it appears, a much different emphasis. I mean, you know, the choice of Leo as his regnal name stunning, not something that I would have thought that someone completely in the mold of Pope Francis would have chosen. And then I mean I don't know if anyone on the panel was able to hear his homily today that he did with the cardinals at his first mass as pope, but it was very. It was not a homily one would have expected from Pope Francis.
Speaker 1:In what way?
Speaker 4:You know Pope Francis, a lot of his homilies, especially in the last few years, have almost all when he's done a homily. A lot of times at Mass he would preside but he wouldn't actively participate, if you will, as the main celebrant, main celebration. But in addition, a lot of homilies talked about a synodal church walking together. But Pope Leo's homily was very Christocentric. He talked about in the homily needing to walk together, but needing to walk together as friends of Christ, needing to walk together as followers of Jesus. In fact he said at one point he talked about Jesus is the Christ, jesus is the son of the living father, he's the one savior who alone reveals the face of the father. And he talked about the atheism we see today.
Speaker 4:And Pope Francis didn't speak a lot about atheism. But Pope Leo in his homily talked about atheism and said that there are essentially two sides of one coin. You have the world who rejects Jesus, and then you have those who see him as just a man and just another person. You know, maybe a great person but just another person, and compare them as essentially the same thing. It's essentially two sides of the atheistic coin and we didn't really see that emphasis on kind of that missionary spirit as under Pope Francis, and so I think Leo might be setting himself up as a Pope Francis, in the same kind of mold as Pope Francis, but with an emphasis on not just going to the margins, which was Pope Francis' emphasis, but going to all peoples, the margins, the center, pretty much trying to bring Jesus to everybody in sharing the gospel.
Speaker 1:And really emphasizing Jesus in the process, not just the ministering to people and meeting their needs physically, as you minister to the poor, for example, but really, like you said, very Christ-centric, which I assume you take as a good thing.
Speaker 4:Yes, and you just put it in a much better way than I did yeah, very Christocentric, and I mean that's very much in the mold of Pope Leo XIII.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. I appreciate that and I thought you did a nice job summarizing many of the things that we talked about and you put them in a very sharp perspective, which I appreciate Is there anything else that we haven't talked about, other than your dad jokes that we needed.
Speaker 4:I am a little upset, to be honest. I was hoping for Carnal Pizzabala, so I could just continue with these great pizza jokes, and I don't know how I'm going to come up with them now. With Leo, that's going to be a lot harder.
Speaker 1:You know, the cardinals could have been more attentive to the families worldwide if they had elected Cardinal Pizzabala. There would have been no end to constantly talking about the pope. I guess they wouldn't refer to him as Pope Pizzaballo, though, would be the problem.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I guess that's fair. That's fair. They really did not take into account my needs to make dad jokes when they made the decision. Not a perfect choice, I guess, but I mean, I think we Catholics owe fidelity to the pope. Fidelity to the Pope, and the way I always take that is we need to have charity, not just in what everyone says, but also we need to have charity with a Pope that, regardless of whether you agreed with Francis or didn't agree with Francis, allow Pope Leo the time and opportunity to be his own Pope, to establish his own preference, his own way of governance and his own mission. And so I'm excited.
Speaker 4:Leo XIII was an interesting pope, and Pius and Leo were the two names I was hoping the next pope would choose.
Speaker 4:Oh, wow and yeah, and so I got the Leo.
Speaker 4:And so I'm excited to see that more traditionalist Catholics and their loss of largely their loss of how they celebrate mass, dealing with the governance issues of trying to both keep bishops in line but give them the respect and freedom due to their office, and looking at a Vatican that I mean, quite frankly, is dealing with a lot of financial problems coming up, and I think what they were looking for is an American Pope who could bring that more Western style of governance to the Vatican, who could continue in many of the ideas of Pope Francis, but potentially with a little bit more clarity.
Speaker 4:Which Pope Leo I mean? He's a Canaan lawyer and we lawyers are known for anything it's being specific and being exact. So I think we're going to see many of the same I'm trying to think of the word many of the same preferences and emphasis of Pope Francis, but in a different way and in a different manner and in a different style that hopefully brings more light and less darkness, more clarity and less confusion, and I think that's really what they were looking for, in that happy balance with Pope Leo. So I'm excited Great first homily, great Irby at Orby address and I'm excited to see where we go from here.
Speaker 1:That's great. Thank you so much, and with you doing those closing remarks, I was thinking how people often comment just all the many varied skills a pastor even a local parish pastor needs to have to lead a small congregation, needs to have to lead a small congregation, and I'm just thinking how much more do you have to multiply that by in order to lead a global church of 1.4 billion people? It's just amazing. And so it sounds like he checks off many of the boxes, though.
Speaker 4:Yep, yep, and I mean I'm praying for him and I'm very hopeful, I'm very excited and I think that the Cardinals, they didn't make a quick choice, but they also didn't take extremely long.
Speaker 1:You know what I was going to wrap this up, but very quickly. I actually was shocked that someone who is not a front runner was able to be elected on the second day. I would have thought that someone who was, so you know, outside of the top choices, that it would have taken a while to reach consensus on such a candidate contingent, people who wanted Tagli but maybe knew the difficulties of trying to get him elected, and also people concerned about his government style.
Speaker 4:I mean that's been some of the criticism and so there was talk going into the conclave that Prevost might be a good alternate to Tagli, but still kind of in that mold of Pope Francis. And I mean we're going to find out more in the coming weeks as Cardinals talk about you know, here were the thoughts, you know in the conclave, here were the discussions in the conclave. We'll know a little bit more about what they were thinking. But I mean Prevost was on the list of possible contenders for every single Vaticanista that I read. So he wasn't always on the list for like the New York Times or anything, but the people really in the know kept talking about him as a possible dark horse candidate that if a quick consensus was not made on Parolin or on Tagli, that he might be the next choice.
Speaker 1:Very interesting.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and there's some evidence to indicate as well that the more conservative wing and again I criticized at the beginning talking about conservatives and liberals- I understand. But the more conservative wing. There's evidence that the more conservative wing actually started to potentially rally around Prevost wing, actually start to potentially rally around Prevost and that might have helped him, along with some of the Tagliabokes, to get over that hump of 89.
Speaker 1:Wonderful Brett, thank you again so much and I am sure that we will find a way down the road to get you back on Church Potluck again, but your maiden voyage was wonderful and I am greatly appreciative.
Speaker 4:Thank you, Dr McConkie, and I'm praying for you and I really appreciate this opportunity.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, and by now it ought to just be Dale, don't you think?
Speaker 4:No, okay, it's going to be Dr McConkie or Chaplain McConkie, and I don't think it's ever going to be Dale. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Okay, attorney Adams Esquire, all right, adams Esquire, all right. Good talking with you and I again thanks a lot. I want to thank you all for coming out on very short notice. I contacted both of you yesterday and said, hey, can you get together for a podcast? And you said yes, and I am very grateful for that and I for very little rehearsal. I thought it went well. So thank you very much, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, yeah, and I want to thank our guests today, but I also want to thank our audience for coming out and listening to yet another episode of Church Potluck this week. I'm trying to find my notes here. We're just going to keep that all in there. So thank you all for listening. I hope we have provided you with some food for thought and something to chew on. And, rita, don't let me forget to get you a mug when we're done with this for helping out here. You need a mug and we might have a little conversation afterwards, but probably a little shorter than typical, but we might have some leftovers afterward. But we appreciate your support and, as part of that support, please consider ranking us, reviewing us or whatever you do on your podcast home base. But until we gather around the table next time.
Speaker 1:This has been Church Potluck, and thank you for listening. I want to listen to this again. I think it is Leo making that toy night. He was an American Pope. Oh yeah, alright, I think it is Leo making that toy night. He was an American Pope.